D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Maxperson]

Cool. This dragon vaporizes people from a range of 1000 feet. After all, the dragon in the MM has never been the end all of what Dragons can do, right? We done with that silliness now?

You are now arguing on my side. My point, and this is true, is that the game per the guidelines permits situations where militia(not commoners) can threaten a dragon. My point was further that dragons need to be made more powerful to prevent that. Your change to dragons due to what a 5e town of 1000 can do to dragons as written is what I have been arguing for. We are now on the same side!

As for your argument that the militia are commoners, well so are thugs, veterans, wizards, acolytes, cultists, assassins, bandits, and on and on. Anyone not a noble is a commoner. That they separate out types of commoners and give them different stat blocks(assassin, bandit, veteran, etc.) means that a militia stat block is right in line with game design. I see no good reason to limit militia to the commoner stat block when so many other commoners have different stat blocks.

Edit: I missed this.

No that's the NPC price. It's listed how much a commoner makes a day, and how much it costs to get a short bow or long bow, and we can run the calculation. Even if you incorporate the Xanathar's crafting rules, it's still WELL WELL WELL beyond affordability for a town of 1000 to afford 300 of either.

How is almost free beyond the cost for a town? Anyone that can craft a bow can just walk into the forest and cut an appropriate branch for bow making at no cost at all. The material has to be worth half, not how much they pay for it. That free stick is worth half the bow. Bow strings aren't more than a few coppers. A few coppers are what the longbow or shortbow cost to make.

 

[Mistwell]

You are now arguing on my side. My point, and this is true, is that the game per the guidelines permits situations where militia(not commoners) can threaten a dragon.

Only if you invent "militia" to mean something new. Just like I "invented" a new range for the Dragon's breath. There are NO GUIDELINES FOR MILITIA. It's just an ordinary word, not an entry in anything.

My point was further that dragons need to be made more powerful to prevent that.

Gee if you make commoners more powerful, then yeah I make Dragons more powerful. Imagine that. If you cheat to fiat around the inherent barriers of the presented scenario then yeah I'd need to respond in kind. Because that's what you're doing - cheating the scenario.

Your change to dragons due to what a 5e town of 1000 can do to dragons as written is what I have been arguing for. We are now on the same side!

It doesn't, anywhere, say the 5e town does what you claim it does. At this point, you're being rude. Please stop.

As for your argument that the militia are commoners, well so are thugs, veterans, wizards, acolytes, cultists, assassins, bandits, and on and on. Anyone not a noble is a commoner.

Commoner is an entry with a description. It's description was given to you earlier in this thread. Those you just named do not have that description.

That they separate out types of commoners

There are no types. It's an MM entry. It's a specific thing.

and give them different stat blocks(assassin, bandit, veteran, etc.) means that a militia stat block is right in line with game design. I see no good reason to limit militia to the commoner stat block when so many other commoners have different stat blocks.

Edit: I missed this.



How is almost free beyond the cost for a town? Anyone that can craft a bow can just walk into the forest and cut an appropriate branch for bow making at no cost at all. The material has to be worth half, not how much they pay for it. That free stick is worth half the bow. Bow strings aren't more than a few coppers. A few coppers are what the longbow or shortbow cost to make.

The rules say it's not free.

Please, for F's sake, stop inventing rules to try and "be right". It's not cute. It's not clever. It's rude at this point. You can't change the scenario with houserules based on how you wish the game worked and DMs inventing stuff.

 

[Pauln6]

You are now arguing on my side. My point, and this is true, is that the game per the guidelines permits situations where militia(not commoners) can threaten a dragon. My point was further that dragons need to be made more powerful to prevent that. Your change to dragons due to what a 5e town of 1000 can do to dragons as written is what I have been arguing for. We are now on the same side!

As for your argument that the militia are commoners, well so are thugs, veterans, wizards, acolytes, cultists, assassins, bandits, and on and on. Anyone not a noble is a commoner. That they separate out types of commoners and give them different stat blocks(assassin, bandit, veteran, etc.) means that a militia stat block is right in line with game design. I see no good reason to limit militia to the commoner stat block when so many other commoners have different stat blocks.

Edit: I missed this.



How is almost free beyond the cost for a town? Anyone that can craft a bow can just walk into the forest and cut an appropriate branch for bow making at no cost at all. The material has to be worth half, not how much they pay for it. That free stick is worth half the bow. Bow strings aren't more than a few coppers. A few coppers are what the longbow or shortbow cost to make.

So your bowyer floods the market with free bows and has to turn to prostitution to make ends meet? It's time to break out the 1e DMG Harlot table!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I still like the idea that a big enough town can at least defend against a dumb dragon that just rushes in mindlessly.
There are fantasy stories where some balistae like weapons are invented and used against dragons. Not that those usually kill a dragon. But at least hurt a bit.
A completely weapon immune monster is unreasonable.

I'd rather see some kind of regeneration/fast healing if you want a monster that is very threatening.
You can stop it with overpowering concentrated damage.

That said: the tarrasque really needs an upgrade in 5e 2024.

 

[Maxperson]

Only if you invent "militia" to mean something new. Just like I "invented" a new range for the Dragon's breath. There are NO GUIDELINES FOR MILITIA. It's just an ordinary word, not an entry in anything.

That's false. I quoted it to you from the DMG earlier. It's an entry in the village of 1000 people or less. There are no stats, just like there aren't stats on 10,000 other professions.

Gee if you make commoners more powerful, then yeah I make Dragons more powerful. Imagine that. If you cheat to fiat around the inherent barriers of the presented scenario then yeah I'd need to respond in kind. Because that's what you're doing - cheating the scenario.

There is no "more powerful" by giving them short bows. It's just a weapon that does damage just like any other. There's also no fiat involved. I quoted to you the guidelines, which you keep calling rules. So in your parlance, RAW is that any NPC can have any weapon and proficiency as part of who and what they are. Opting to use an available "rule" is not making anything more powerful. That power is already there to be used.

It doesn't, anywhere, say the 5e town does what you claim it does. At this point, you're being rude. Please stop.

How about you stop with these house rules that NPCs have to buy bows or use PC crafting optional rules. NPCs and PCs are not the same. What PCs have to do does not apply to NPCs. Stop with the house rule that you have to use stat blocks exactly as presented when "RAW" says otherwise.

Commoner is an entry with a description. It's description was given to you earlier in this thread. Those you just named do not have that description.

And stop with the house rule that militia members are the commoner stat block. Commoners as written in the statblock are only peasants, serfs, servants, pilgrims, merchants, artisans, and hermits. Anything else is your house rule.

See, I can also keep accusing people of making up house rules. The difference is that I'm using what is written and you are actually inventing things.

There are no types. It's an MM entry. It's a specific thing.

You really need to look at the commoner entry closer then. You've missed the types of people who are written as commoners, and the list doesn't include farmers or militia. If you're going to limit us to exactly what is written, we cannot use the commoner statblock for militia members.

The rules say it's not free.

No. No they do not. In fact they only say that the material has to be worth X value, not that you have to pay X value. If your fighter finds a bunch of scrap metal in a dungeon worth half the value of plate mail, he can craft plate mail without paying for the materials. Stop making up house rules.

Please, for F's sake, stop inventing rules to try and "be right". It's not cute. It's not clever. It's rude at this point. You can't change the scenario with houserules based on how you wish the game worked and DMs inventing stuff.

Quite literally you are the only one inventing house rules. I have shown quotes that back me up on everything.

Fact #1: Towns have militias.
Fact #2: The commoner entry does not show militia as one of the types of commoners.
Fact #3: You can equip commoners or any other NPCs with any weapon you like and give them proficiency.
Fact #4: You do not need to pay for the materials used in crafting. You only need the materials to have X value where X is half of retail.
Fact #5: NPCs do not need to pay for the weapons used, nor do they need to follow the PC crafting rules.
Fact #6: A village, using only existing statblocks, rules and guidelines as written, can threaten even the oldest dragons as they are written.

You don't get to deny me the use of existing written rules and guidelines, especially when they don't increase the power of commoners, since as written, any commoner can own and be proficient with any weapon.

 

[Pauln6]

That's false. I quoted it to you from the DMG earlier. It's an entry in the village of 1000 people or less. There are no stats, just like there aren't stats on 10,000 other professions.

There is no "more powerful" by giving them short bows. It's just a weapon that does damage just like any other. There's also no fiat involved. I quoted to you the guidelines, which you keep calling rules. So in your parlance, RAW is that any NPC can have any weapon and proficiency as part of who and what they are. Opting to use an available "rule" is not making anything more powerful. That power is already there to be used.

How about you stop with these house rules that NPCs have to buy bows or use PC crafting optional rules. NPCs and PCs are not the same. What PCs have to do does not apply to NPCs. Stop with the house rule that you have to use stat blocks exactly as presented when "RAW" says otherwise.

And stop with the house rule that militia members are the commoner stat block. Commoners as written in the statblock are only peasants, serfs, servants, pilgrims, merchants, artisans, and hermits. Anything else is your house rule.

See, I can also keep accusing people of making up house rules. The difference is that I'm using what is written and you are actually inventing things.

You really need to look at the commoner entry closer then. You've missed the types of people who are written as commoners, and the list doesn't include farmers or militia. If you're going to limit us to exactly what is written, we cannot use the commoner statblock for militia members.

No. No they do not. In fact they only say that the material has to be worth X value, not that you have to pay X value. If your fighter finds a bunch of scrap metal in a dungeon worth half the value of plate mail, he can craft plate mail without paying for the materials. Stop making up house rules.

Quite literally you are the only one inventing house rules. I have shown quotes that back me up on everything.

Fact #1: Towns have militias.
Fact #2: The commoner entry does not show militia as one of the types of commoners.
Fact #3: You can equip commoners or any other NPCs with any weapon you like and give them proficiency.
Fact #4: You do not need to pay for the materials used in crafting. You only need the materials to have X value where X is half of retail.
Fact #5: NPCs do not need to pay for the weapons used, nor do they need to follow the PC crafting rules.
Fact #6: A village, using only existing statblocks, rules and guidelines as written, can threaten even the oldest dragons as they are written.

You don't get to deny me the use of existing written rules and guidelines, especially when they don't increase the power of commoners, since as written, any commoner can own and be proficient with any weapon.

Realistically, militia, if you want to upgrade commoners, would sit between the commoner stats and the soldier/guard stats. There's no reason to change their stats but I suppose you could give them +1 to strength, +1 HD, and proficiency in spears. You could also have a mix of weapons to include bows, pitchforks, clubs, etc but they would each only get one proficiency. I think of them as more like Dad's Army than the A-Team.

For larger settlements, you could give them more diverse equipment, maybe 2 proficiencies, and +1 Con.

Personally, I think your town would have to be pretty large to have enough people with the right weapons, who don't fail their save against dragon fear, and also make their morale save, in the right places to take on the dragon in any meaningful way.

A bigger town has more militia but those that don't flee would be more spread out.

 

[CapnZapp]

then use point buy/array.
you are creating more problems in the game by rolling stats.

Yes, any discussion about balance needs to share a common starting point.

In other words, point buy/starting array.

If you're prepared to shuck this balance partly out the window - not everyone needs or cares for balance, after all - then by all means use random roll.

 

[CapnZapp]

A village, using only existing statblocks, rules and guidelines as written, can threaten even the oldest dragons as they are written.

Yep.

The best approach to using D&D to simulate some kind of reality, even a fantastical one where elves exist, is...

"don't worry about it".

Don't expect or think D&D can or should handle anything else than 4-6 heroes face waves of small bands of monsters, politely arriving at regular intervals, always ready to fight a cinematic battle, never using "boring" tactics that value survival above else.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Fact #6: A village, using only existing statblocks, rules and guidelines as written, can threaten even the oldest dragons as they are written.

You don't get to deny me the use of existing written rules and guidelines, especially when they don't increase the power of commoners, since as written, any commoner can own and be proficient with any weapon.

You can use any rules you want. But don't deny other people their own assessment about the possibility of a village to defeat a dragon.

 

[Mistwell]

That's false. I quoted it to you from the DMG earlier. It's an entry in the village of 1000 people or less. There are no stats, just like there aren't stats on 10,000 other professions.

Right there are no stats. Then you declared what it meant with specific stats. Hence inventing.

There is no "more powerful" by giving them short bows. It's just a weapon that does damage just like any other.

Yes it is, it requires proficiency they do not have, and gold they do not have, and both of those are stated i the rules. The proficiency in the commoner entry and the gold in the DMG for unskilled labor daily wages. The professions under commoner match the unskilled labor. So we have rules for both, and you've decided to override them.

There's also no fiat involved. I quoted to you the guidelines, which you keep calling rules.

There are NOT guidelines for a militia for a town. None.

So in your parlance, RAW is that any NPC can have any weapon and proficiency as part of who and what they are. Opting to use an available "rule" is not making anything more powerful. That power is already there to be used.

How about you stop with these house rules that NPCs have to buy bows or use PC crafting optional rules. NPCs and PCs are not the same. What PCs have to do does not apply to NPCs. Stop with the house rule that you have to use stat blocks exactly as presented when "RAW" says otherwise.

They have listed proficiency with a club, ownership of a club, and not enough gold to buy much else. There are crafting rules for how much it costs to make items, how much it costs for a crafter to make the items, and they cannot afford either. There is no rule at all saying they just gain proficiency and weapons for free. You had to make it up to try and craft your argument once faced with actual numbers from the books to challenge your silly claim about a town of peasants defeating a dragon.

And stop with the house rule that militia members are the commoner stat block. Commoners as written in the statblock are only peasants, serfs, servants, pilgrims, merchants, artisans, and hermits. Anything else is your house rule.

I am using the ordinary word definition of militia - which is just the able bodied peoples of a town grabbing whatever weapons they have available. In D&D unless it's a defined term it's expected to mean just the ordinary English language meaning of that thing.

See, I can also keep accusing people of making up house rules. The difference is that I'm using what is written and you are actually inventing things.

You really need to look at the commoner entry closer then. You've missed the types of people who are written as commoners, and the list doesn't include farmers or militia.

Militia isn't a profession, and serfs and peasants is subsistence farmers.

If you're going to limit us to exactly what is written, we cannot use the commoner statblock for militia members.

There is no such thing. It's not a formal military concept, it's an informal thing you just call up in a emergency. You're not a "member" you're just "able bodied person with a pitchfork or bucket responding to a bell of emergency."

Fact #3: You can equip commoners or any other NPCs with any weapon you like and give them proficiency.

Right that's circular logic. I can equip Dragons with anything I like to but that's not what you said. They don't get equipment even first level PCs have a hard time affording and they surely don't get proficiency in things many classes don't even get. This is you cheating the scenario. I asked you to stop.

But OK Max, you want to try and invent an "I win" button so you don't have to admit your scenario was questionable? Fine. You win. Equip your peasants with firearms and proficiency in them while you're at it. I know when to walk away from a guy who is playing a game I don't want to play, and this conversation has become a game to you. Adios.