D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Pauln6]

Maybe that's how the peasants win. By spending so long telling the dragon all the different ways peasants can win, it gets bored and goes back to sleep on its massive pile of treasure.

 

[Maxperson]

Realistically, militia, if you want to upgrade commoners, would sit between the commoner stats and the soldier/guard stats. There's no reason to change their stats but I suppose you could give them +1 to strength, +1 HD, and proficiency in spears. You could also have a mix of weapons to include bows, pitchforks, clubs, etc but they would each only get one proficiency. I think of them as more like Dad's Army than the A-Team.

For larger settlements, you could give them more diverse equipment, maybe 2 proficiencies, and +1 Con.

Personally, I think your town would have to be pretty large to have enough people with the right weapons, who don't fail their save against dragon fear, and also make their morale save, in the right places to take on the dragon in any meaningful way.

A bigger town has more militia but those that don't flee would be more spread out.

Excepting ancient red dragons, any commoner as written can make the save vs. dragon fear. Most ancient dragons present trouble, but even if the save needs a natural 20, you'll have 15 make the save the first round, something close to 15 the second round, and so on. It might take 3-4 rounds for enough to make the save to start shooting in enough numbers to threaten the dragon, but more will save every round and all who save are then immune. And most ancient dragons don't have a 20 fear save, so you'll have double or more than the 15 making saves every round.

I suppose if the ancient dragon wants to show up, strafe the town for 1-3 rounds and then run away, it can safely attack a town. Otherwise even ancient dragons are at risk. Anything below an ancient dragon and ancient white dragons are screwed, though. After 4 or more rounds, though, enough would have grouped back up to be a threat.

Militia being proficient with short bows is going very common. Bows were used in hunting and defense, and it wasn't just hunters that used them.

 

[Pauln6]

Excepting ancient red dragons, any commoner as written can make the save vs. dragon fear. Most ancient dragons present trouble, but even if the save needs a natural 20, you'll have 15 make the save the first round, something close to 15 the second round, and so on. It might take 3-4 rounds for enough to make the save to start shooting in enough numbers to threaten the dragon, but more will save every round and all who save are then immune. And most ancient dragons don't have a 20 fear save, so you'll have double or more than the 15 making saves every round.

I suppose if the ancient dragon wants to show up, strafe the town for 1-3 rounds and then run away, it can safely attack a town. Otherwise even ancient dragons are at risk. Anything below an ancient dragon and ancient white dragons are screwed, though. After 4 or more rounds, though, enough would have grouped back up to be a threat.

Militia being proficient with short bows is going very common. Bows were used in hunting and defense, and it wasn't just hunters that used them.

I do take issue with this scenario though, because it completely overlooks the commoners as characters rather than stat blocks. Dragon fear means they have no choice but to flee but why do you assume that once they make their save, they would want to rush back in? Even assuming the most basic version of the morale check in the DMG, the commoners have a 45% chance of fleeing voluntarily both at the time they see their allies flee from dragon fear and then also once any of them save against dragon fear.

The rules suggest that an inspiring leader might increase their morale, until they are killed horribly, but even with a leader intact, a percentage of your militia is going AWOL.

Admittedly, I'm not saying that a town full of commoners couldn't kill a dragon, just that it would be nowhere near as clean as suggested unless you start layering in other factors such as heroic leaders, magical assistance, etc.

 

[Maxperson]

Right there are no stats. Then you declared what it meant with specific stats. Hence inventing.

Aaaand I've already shown how to be a threat with commoners. My point is that militia would be a bit better, because while it's minimal, they do train where commoners don't.

Yes it is, it requires proficiency they do not have, and gold they do not have, and both of those are stated i the rules.

It does not require proficiency that they do not have, since commoners by "RAW" have proficiency in any weapon they use per the DM's decision. So by "RAW" they will have it in the scenario. And you have not stated any rule that says that NPCs have to spend even a single gold piece. Not one. You've only shown the PC rules. NPCs do not have to follow PC rules. I can in fact have a baker with +12 skill with baking tools, 5 hit points, +0 to hit in battle, etc.

Show me the rule that explicitly says that NPCs have to buy their weapons.

The proficiency in the commoner entry

There is no proficiency in the commoner entry. None. Not even with clubs. Commoners are proficient by "RAW" with any weapon the deem decides that they are, and equipped with any weapon the DM chooses. Hell, the knight isn't even proficient with his weapons if you are looking at the stat block only.

This is also in the NPC section that you are grabbing commoners out of. I already shows you the "RAW" from the beginning of the book on changing weapons and proficiency, but the actual NPC section repeats it.

"Armor and Weapon Swaps. You can upgrade or downgrade an NPC's armor, or add or switch weapons. Adjustments to Armor Class and damage can change an NPC's challenge rating, as explained in the Dungeon Master's Guide."

Note that changing the only the damage from 1-4 to 1-6 doesn't alter the challenge rating. It's not enough on its own.

and the gold in the DMG for unskilled labor daily wages. The professions under commoner match the unskilled labor. So we have rules for both, and you've decided to override them.

Nope! Those are the rules PCs have to follow, not NPCs. You're the one inventing rules here. Stop inventing rules that NPCs have to conform to PC rules when being created. They don't unless the DM opts into that particular design strategy, which of course means that he's also rolling 4d6-L for the commoners and giving them starting gold since he's creating them like PCs.

There are NOT guidelines for a militia for a town. None.

And yet militia exist in D&D "RAW".

They have listed proficiency with a club, ownership of a club, and not enough gold to buy much else. There are crafting rules for how much it costs to make items, how much it costs for a crafter to make the items, and they cannot afford either. There is no rule at all saying they just gain proficiency and weapons for free. You had to make it up to try and craft your argument once faced with actual numbers from the books to challenge your silly claim about a town of peasants defeating a dragon.

Stop inventing fiction. There is no rule anywhere that says you have to buy the materials to make the bow. You can cut it off of a tree for free. The mayor can give you the wood for free. The party rogue can steal it from a supplier for free. There is no rule that says you have to pay. Since you are having difficulties I will quote you the rule.

"In addition to the appropriate tools for the item to be crafted, a character needs raw materials worth half of the item's selling cost."

Not one word there about buying the material. Only that it needs to be WORTH half. That bow stave cut from a tree for free is worth half.

I am using the ordinary word definition of militia - which is just the able bodied peoples of a town grabbing whatever weapons they have available. In D&D unless it's a defined term it's expected to mean just the ordinary English language meaning of that thing.

You're inventing again. There's no good reason to think that they 1) wouldn't have bows available when bows are free to make, or 2) that the local township would have bows on loan to those designated as militia members.

There is no such thing. It's not a formal military concept, it's an informal thing you just call up in a emergency. You're not a "member" you're just "able bodied person with a pitchfork or bucket responding to a bell of emergency."

It's a quasi military concept. Militias trained for a few days a year and drew from people who had bows to hunt with, which included farmers and others.

Right that's circular logic. I can equip Dragons with anything I like to but that's not what you said. They don't get equipment even first level PCs have a hard time affording and they surely don't get proficiency in things many classes don't even get. This is you cheating the scenario. I asked you to stop.

"RAW" =/= cheating, no matter how many times you repeat the mantra. Nor is using "RAW" circular logic. They do in fact get whatever equipment the DM sees fit to give them, though if you put them in half plate and give them greatswords the significant increase in both damage and AC will raise their challenge rating.

Giving them the very logical short bows, which would be free by "RAW" since there is no requirement to pay for materials, is not cheating or circular.

But OK Max, you want to try and invent an "I win" button so you don't have to admit your scenario was questionable? Fine. You win. Equip your peasants with firearms and proficiency in them while you're at it. I know when to walk away from a guy who is playing a game I don't want to play, and this conversation has become a game to you. Adios.

Ciao. The only "cheater" or "I win button" user here is you, though. You're the only one inventing rules and requirements that aren't in the game. I'm using "RAW" for everything.

 

[Maxperson]

I do take issue with this scenario though, because it completely overlooks the commoners as characters rather than stat blocks. Dragon fear means they have no choice but to flee but why do you assume that once they make their save, they would want to rush back in? Even assuming the most basic version of the morale check in the DMG, the commoners have a 45% chance of fleeing voluntarily both at the time they see their allies flee from dragon fear and then also once any of them save against dragon fear.

I actually agree with this. I'm talking about what is written, though. I take exceptions to dragons even being vulnerable to such a hodgpodge grouping of people, even if who they are means that they wouldn't act in a way that would kill the dragon. You'd still have some making the saves, finding their bows(and many would have bows despite what Mistwell says), and taking shots to try and save their families. The ancient dragon shouldn't be taking ANY damage from such weak people.

The rules suggest that an inspiring leader might increase their morale, until they are killed horribly, but even with a leader intact, a percentage of your militia is going AWOL.

Again, agreed.

Admittedly, I'm not saying that a town full of commoners couldn't kill a dragon, just that it would be nowhere near as clean as suggested unless you start layering in other factors such as heroic leaders, magical assistance, etc.

Oh, I never imagined that it would be clean. Even under the scenario provided at the beginning the dragon would kill huge swathes of the commoners. It would be very messy and take the town generations to recover from.

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe that's how the peasants win. By spending so long telling the dragon all the different ways peasants can win, it gets bored and goes back to sleep on its massive pile of treasure.

Dragons are smart! Once it realizes that commoners are a threat, it would likely bargain for treasure in exchange for not devastating them and everyone would be happy-ish.

 

[Pauln6]

Dragons are smart! Once it realizes that commoners are a threat, it would likely bargain for treasure in exchange for not devastating them and everyone would be happy-ish.

Right, and then poison the water supply the following week.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, and then poison the water supply the following week.

Shtoopid green dragons! They have it easy. The rest of us chromatics have to go make buy the poison.

 

[Pauln6]

Shtoopid green dragons! They have it easy. The rest of us chromatics have to go make buy the poison.

That's the beauty of it. Wear a wig and a cloak and you buy the poison from the village shop, claiming you have a 'rat' problem. A BIG rat problem.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Maybe that's how the peasants win. By spending so long telling the dragon all the different ways peasants can win, it gets bored and goes back to sleep on its massive pile of treasure.

It is pretty weird that these tangents so rarely end up talking about something interesting and rather some point of agonizing minutia isn't it? You'd think we'd rabbit off talking about cool stuff more often.