D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 262 53.0%
  • Nope

    Votes: 232 47.0%

It's fine if you handwave it, because most people do (myself generally included).

But realizing that encounters (and everything you do in the game that isn't freeform intraparty dialogue and equipment/resource management is an encounter) give an average number of XP, and that means XP/level can be converted into encounters per level, is just basic math, and something that's presented right up front in the system rules.
So, can anyone help quantify this for me?

As far as combat goes it's easy. There's easy, medium, hard, etc.

But what about social encounters? Are we counting the party going and talking to the blacksmith to get the next plot coupon an easy encounter? Convincing the guard to pay a little extra for their goblin bounty a medium encounter? Winning the hearts and minds of the village, and convincing the town to rise up, gather pitchforks and axes and aid the party in the defense of the village a hard encounter?

Also, are you guys like actually keeping track of all of these things? Like a journal where you jot down
  • Party talked to the town regent and learned about the witch living in the mountains on the outskirts of town.
  • Part sought out the village elder and learned that the witch is actually the regent's long lost sister who accidentally hurt some people with her new found magical ice powers and has now chosen to live in isolation.
  • Party traveled to the mountains, and had to repair their sled after it broke down.
Three encounters, party levels up from 1 to 2.
  • Party attacked by snow golem, they defeat it. (Deadly encounter, 3 points?)
  • Party wisely packed climbing gear so they are able to scale the mountain and enter the ice fortress
  • Party meets the Ice Witch, they survive her attacks and are able to persuade her to come back and rejoin civilization. (Hard encounter, 2 points?)
One encounter, one hard encounter, and one deadly encounter for a total of 6 points, party levels up from 2 to 3.

I'm a new DM so I've been mostly shooting from the hip, and doing what I assume is milestone leveling. Session one was a self contained adventure, and I gave them level 2. Session two and three were also both sort of self contained adventures, and I them level 3 after session 3. I am not sure what session four will be but I figured I would keep it exponential. Level 4 will come after the equivalent of four adventures? Perhaps two single session adventures, and one longer multi session adventure, or maybe two longer multi session adventures? I know that I can't grow exponentially like this forever because that's ridiculous. The gap between level 8 and 9 would be over 100 adventures, and then between 9 and 10 would be something crazy like 250 adventures.

But the tracking encounters thing seems odd too. If we're counting everything that isn't table talk and re-arranging your backpack there's potential for a looooooooooot of "encounters" here. We get to a point where it is hard to determine what counts and what doesn't and how much they should all weigh.
 

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It's not nitpicking. Not one single detail in your post was on target. There are two parallel threads of discussion being talked about & your comment addressed neither.
You are entirely correct, I was not addressing either topic you listed, because I didn’t find them interesting. You clever clog. :)
 

Quick straw poll. What are your intentions right now?

Yes or no only. If you are undecided go with which way you are leaning—-like if you HAD to pick which would you pick? If you’re exactly 50/50 then don’t worry I guess!
I am not planning to move into the 2024 books but I am planning to seriously consider to move into LUA5e instead with my recent group.
 

So, can anyone help quantify this for me?

As far as combat goes it's easy. There's easy, medium, hard, etc.

But what about social encounters? Are we counting the party going and talking to the blacksmith to get the next plot coupon an easy encounter? Convincing the guard to pay a little extra for their goblin bounty a medium encounter? Winning the hearts and minds of the village, and convincing the town to rise up, gather pitchforks and axes and aid the party in the defense of the village a hard encounter?

Also, are you guys like actually keeping track of all of these things? Like a journal where you jot down
  • Party talked to the town regent and learned about the witch living in the mountains on the outskirts of town.
  • Part sought out the village elder and learned that the witch is actually the regent's long lost sister who accidentally hurt some people with her new found magical ice powers and has now chosen to live in isolation.
  • Party traveled to the mountains, and had to repair their sled after it broke down.
Three encounters, party levels up from 1 to 2.
  • Party attacked by snow golem, they defeat it. (Deadly encounter, 3 points?)
  • Party wisely packed climbing gear so they are able to scale the mountain and enter the ice fortress
  • Party meets the Ice Witch, they survive her attacks and are able to persuade her to come back and rejoin civilization. (Hard encounter, 2 points?)
One encounter, one hard encounter, and one deadly encounter for a total of 6 points, party levels up from 2 to 3.

I'm a new DM so I've been mostly shooting from the hip, and doing what I assume is milestone leveling. Session one was a self contained adventure, and I gave them level 2. Session two and three were also both sort of self contained adventures, and I them level 3 after session 3. I am not sure what session four will be but I figured I would keep it exponential. Level 4 will come after the equivalent of four adventures? Perhaps two single session adventures, and one longer multi session adventure, or maybe two longer multi session adventures? I know that I can't grow exponentially like this forever because that's ridiculous. The gap between level 8 and 9 would be over 100 adventures, and then between 9 and 10 would be something crazy like 250 adventures.

But the tracking encounters thing seems odd too. If we're counting everything that isn't table talk and re-arranging your backpack there's potential for a looooooooooot of "encounters" here. We get to a point where it is hard to determine what counts and what doesn't and how much they should all weigh.
The PCs are designed with a level of combat resources suited for attrition over a certain expected adventuring day. Unfortunately it takes some threading through the wording of both the 6-8 medium to hard encounters and the section of the DMG where the explanation it is found in. A while back someone did the work of collecting everything & drawing all the arrows here. To save the click you can read that in the spoiler below

The War of Attrition: How WotC Thought We'd Play vs. How We Actually Play​

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Analysis
So if you're like me, you like to read. And there's a lot of things to read related to Dungeons & Dragons, and undoubtedly the most important stuff is what's in the core books—the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. Then, to a lesser extent, Xanathar's Guide to Everything, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, as well as Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.
And in those books are quite a few guidelines on how to run the game. There has been no end of debate about whether this is what you should have, what you might have, what you can have, and so on.
One of the most controversial bits is in the DMG, on Page 84. Most of you already know what I'm about to quote.
Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.
And just right after it:
In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.
So right there we have a rough outline of an "adventuring day." 6-8 medium or hard encounters, with two short rests, per long rest. And there are a lot of arguments about what this actually means.
"It says the party can handle it, not that they have to."
"Not every day is an adventuring day."
"It's not combat encounters."
And all of these are probably true to some extent, but if you read that section in context of how they're also talking about XP (which RAW is only granted by combat), and increasing encounter difficulty with things like "The whole party is surprised, and the enemy isn’t." or "The characters are taking damage every round from some environmental effect or magical source, and the enemy isn’t." these are clearly intended to be combat encounters. I mean maybe in your games you have "surprise" for Social Encounters, but I've certainly never seen it.
I don't think we should be trying to do mental gymnastics to justify what "6-8 encounters with 2 short rests" means. I think it's much easier to just admit WotC designed a game how most people don't want to play it. This also explains why there's so much class disparity. Classes like Monks and Warlocks are supposed to get 2 short rests every day. Similarly, the Monk capstone of "you gain back 4 ki points when you roll initiative if you have 0" sounds a lot better if you're doing 8 fights per long rest. This is also why classes with full spellcasting progression go off the rails at higher levels. Because they never get properly drained throughout the day, and instead are allowed to blow 8 encounters worth of spell slots in only 1 or 2.
Jeremy Crawford says "there is no minimum" but Mike Mearls says that they intended for 6-8 encounters per day.
I think the truth of the matter is, this game was designed for people to fight a lot of things. Like, a lot. But most people don't want to spend four three-hour sessions in a single dungeon trying to squeeze in 8 encounters. They want contained, episodic "Avatar: The Last Airbender" style sessions where a series of smaller stories are connected by an overarching plot. Nobody wants to watch A:TLA where they spend 4 episodes just fighting guys nonstop. Similarly, nobody wants to watch A:TLA where a single day takes 4 episodes (outside of some specific plots, perhaps). Because it's not narratively satisfying. If you follow the XP and encounter guidelines, you'll be level 20 in a matter of in-game weeks, which is very unsatisfying unless you do massive time skips constantly, but again that's not always going to fit in every story. It certainly doesn't fit in any of the adventure modules. And this is where ludonarrative dissonance comes into play with D&D: the story being told narratively vs. the story being told in the gameplay. D&D is a role-playing game, after all, and at a certain point the "role-playing" stops making any sense when your character has a 500 body count by level 3.
If we look in other sections of the books, we also see a lot more "guidelines" like this that don't really fit how most people play.
On Page 38 of the DMG we have "Starting Gold By Level" that includes a lot of money and a few starting magic items.
On Page 135 of XGtE again we have tables of magic items that you should probably have a certain level. And on the next page, 136, we are told to "overstock" the adventure because the numbers given are the numbers the party should have, not just those that are available.
Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen DMs be so generous with gold or magic items. I know the game is (apparently) "balanced around not having magic items" but if that's the case then why are they so emphasized and DMs are told to hand them out pretty frequently? We are literally told to "over-stuff your world with magic items because the party doesn't find them all." Just like you don't have to run 6-8 encounters, you don't have to have magic items, but it certainly seems to be the intended design. It's curious that people will argue about "6-8 encounters" forever, but if you never hand out magic items, (which the book explicitly says you don't need) everyone will call you a bad DM.
I think the truth of the matter is is that most of us do not play the way WotC thought we would, which is why there are a lot of design choices that don't make sense.
Bard and Monk capstones makes a lot more sense when you're rolling initiative 8 times per day. The Warlock capstone especially makes a lot more sense when it's basically a third short rest for your 8-fight day.
I think Gritty Realism is probably how most people should be playing, since they don't run that many fights, and they want a more narrative-driven experience. 50 magic items doesn't seem so bad when it takes them a whole week to shrug off maximum hit point reductions and poisons/diseases. Plus, it would let all those badass magic items that are basically just extra spells lots for fullcasters make a lot more sense too. 1-3 fights, short rest. 1-3 fights, short rest. 1-3 fights, long rest. Seems like it would balance things a lot more.

People often try to defend the design by broadening the scope of "encounter" from resource consuming combat encounters to add literally any sort of social or exploration encounter even though those rarely include notable resource attrition (if any) & it causes a lot of confusion because social & exploration encounters are not included in what is written on DMG84.
 

So, can anyone help quantify this for me?

As far as combat goes it's easy. There's easy, medium, hard, etc.

But what about social encounters? Are we counting the party going and talking to the blacksmith to get the next plot coupon an easy encounter? Convincing the guard to pay a little extra for their goblin bounty a medium encounter? Winning the hearts and minds of the village, and convincing the town to rise up, gather pitchforks and axes and aid the party in the defense of the village a hard encounter?

Also, are you guys like actually keeping track of all of these things? Like a journal where you jot down
  • Party talked to the town regent and learned about the witch living in the mountains on the outskirts of town.
  • Part sought out the village elder and learned that the witch is actually the regent's long lost sister who accidentally hurt some people with her new found magical ice powers and has now chosen to live in isolation.
  • Party traveled to the mountains, and had to repair their sled after it broke down.
Three encounters, party levels up from 1 to 2.
  • Party attacked by snow golem, they defeat it. (Deadly encounter, 3 points?)
  • Party wisely packed climbing gear so they are able to scale the mountain and enter the ice fortress
  • Party meets the Ice Witch, they survive her attacks and are able to persuade her to come back and rejoin civilization. (Hard encounter, 2 points?)
One encounter, one hard encounter, and one deadly encounter for a total of 6 points, party levels up from 2 to 3.

I'm a new DM so I've been mostly shooting from the hip, and doing what I assume is milestone leveling. Session one was a self contained adventure, and I gave them level 2. Session two and three were also both sort of self contained adventures, and I them level 3 after session 3. I am not sure what session four will be but I figured I would keep it exponential. Level 4 will come after the equivalent of four adventures? Perhaps two single session adventures, and one longer multi session adventure, or maybe two longer multi session adventures? I know that I can't grow exponentially like this forever because that's ridiculous. The gap between level 8 and 9 would be over 100 adventures, and then between 9 and 10 would be something crazy like 250 adventures.

But the tracking encounters thing seems odd too. If we're counting everything that isn't table talk and re-arranging your backpack there's potential for a looooooooooot of "encounters" here. We get to a point where it is hard to determine what counts and what doesn't and how much they should all weigh.
The main question is "what counts as a resource-depleting encounter outside of combat? and how is that quantified?"

My concise answer is think of the % of resources used (hit points, spell slots, class abilities) in a scene. There's no perfect metric for this - it's a feel you acquire. The DMG encounter guidelines assume that each encounter uses approximately 12 to 16% of the party's resources – basically dividing 100 by 6 to 8 encounters they assume. A more difficult encounter would use more % and an easier one less %.

There are good reasons to question the DMG guidelines, but they're at least a starting point that's OK at low levels.

If the party is 1st level, a charm person and a moderate bribe paid to a guard would constitute maaaybe 10% of their resources. It's fair to call that an easy encounter.

Whereas an 8th level party playing through the exact same scene, I wouldn't even consider it a significant encounter (from the resource-depletion standpoint).

That's the main question.

Then there's the broader question of how to handle XP for non-combat encounters. Everyone has their own approach, but mine was to break from the rules-as-written and create my own quest-based XP system that jettisons "killing monsters gets XP" entirely. Basically, using the 5e level advancement table, I derive first column to determine how much XP is required to reach the next level up. Then the two columns are a % of that value – Minor quest 10% and Major quest 30%. So to level up, a party might complete 3 major quests and a minor quest.

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EDIT: Since I always get asked, the weirdness at 10th and 11th level? That's not me. That's built into the game by WotC for gods know what reason. Because it was nuts and messed with the flow of my quest XP system, I choose to smooth out the quest XP values for 10th and 11th level (thus they're not perfectly 10% and 30% of the XP to level up at those levels - because the XP to level up at 10th/11th is just wonky).
 


Okay, guts. Let's be honest with ourselves. No one is deciding whether or not to adopt the new edition-not-edition based off an analysis of the math behind the XP/level progression.
I dunno. Look at it from the other direction. A clear admission of the problem & explanation or demonstration of how & why it will be fixed could be one of the elements tipping scales away from the second option in the poll. That's the problem, it's a GM pain point and the most we've seen about it is what may as well be optimistic tea leaf reading based on stray comments made in videos discussing other things.
 


Here’s my prediction. We’re going to talk about 2014 DnD as much as we talked about 3.0 after 3.5 came out.

As in not at all.
Probably mostly true, and increasingly so over time. There will likely be a certain amount of people asking for rules or character advice and specifying that it's for 2014 5e. But yeah, most of the conversation is driven by new content, either in reacting to it or in how to use it. And all the new content is going to be for Revised 5e. Both the new core books, and the supplements that follow them.
 

Probably mostly true, and increasingly so over time. There will likely be a certain amount of people asking for rules or character advice and specifying that it's for 2014 5e. But yeah, most of the conversation is driven by new content, either in reacting to it or in how to use it. And all the new content is going to be for Revised 5e. Both the new core books, and the supplements that follow them.
Personally, I think the CharOp community will ensure that the pre-2024 options have a long tail.

If the 2024 cleric is slightly stronger than the 2014 cleric AND it’s compatible with twilight and/or peace cleric, as as example, then that’s going to be the CharOp recommendation. All previous options being valid is, as far as we know, supposed to be both RAW and RAI.
 

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