D&D (2024) PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

[Azzy]

At levels people actually play at?

I haven't played 3.5e in over a decade, though I distinctly remember the cleric overcompensating. But 3.5e did inherit the intentionally broken system that included trap options on purpose.

 

[Zardnaar]

I haven't played 3.5e in over a decade, though I distinctly remember the cleric overcompensating. But 3.5e did inherit the intentionally broken system that included trap options on purpose.

Clerics were more higher level and non core options.

Complete divine was fairly bonkers. It was mostly persistent spell and divine metamagic.

 

[Ashrym]

One thing that’s not clear to me. Say you are carrying 100lbs of gear. You grapple a creature weighing 100 lbs that has another 100lbs of gear he is carrying.

When it comes to carrying that would count as 300lbs of carrying. When it comes to dragging is it 200lbs for dragging? Do you sum what you are carrying with what’s being dragged? Etc.

I sum it all and then decide whether it's dragging or carrying based on the total. Usually a quick estimate is all that's needed.

 

[Xetheral]

Those aren't rules in conflict. They're overlapping effects on the PC.

If the PC is physically capable of dealing with the weight then they are not reduced to 5' movement. If they are not then the excessive weight causes them to have a maximum movement of 5'.

That places medium sized characters into the position where from 8-20 STR they can carry 120-300 lbs and they can drag 240-600 lbs. It only takes 8 STR to drag 240 lbs, which seems capable of dragging a similar sized creature even for someone with under avg STR.

While dragging, lifting, or pushing the weight above carrying capacity the PC's movement cannot be more than 5'. If they are dragging within that carrying capacity then the grappled rule applies.



Moving a grappled opponent doesn't change anything from the carrying capacity rules. All it does is cost extra movement.



The Grappler feat doesn't change anything in the carrying capacity rules. All it does is remove the extra movement cost when moving the grappled opponent. All these rules can be applied at once.

If you make a Goliath the Powerful Build option helps this significantly, and if your party cleric is a Halfling then you're Goliath monk can happily run around carrying the cleric spreading Spirit Guardians love. But there's no rules conflict going on here.

Breaking those limits would require a DM to set a DC Athletics check in a "DM may I?" approach.

I don’t view either as overriding. Grappled condition movable simply clarifies 2 things: 1 you can drag or carry a grappled creature (just in case any doubt). Doing so costs twice the movement.

Carrying capacity rules set drag/carry speed to 5ft if over the 15x str drag/carry speed.

Half of 5ft is 2.5 ft.

Both rules work in conjunction.

I stand by my opinion that the rules are in conflict, even though I agree that there is no mathematical obstacle to applying them both simultaneously. Instead, the conflict I see is in the purpose of the rules.

Specifically, I read the grappling rules as designed to enable one creature to drag another, not to further limit dragging beyond the speed restrictions on dragging inert objects. Far from enabling dragging, by applying both movement limitations simultaneously, one average human (carry capacity 150 lbs., weight 165 lbs., 30' speed) could only drag another average human 5' per round, and that only if they take the Dash action. That the average case would fail to allow practically useful or even vaguely realistic dragging speeds I see as further evidence that the rules are in conflict. If dragging any meaningful distance was indeed restricted only to strong characters dragging lighter creatures, I think the grappling rules would have been written in a way to make that additional limitation clear, rather than presenting the grappling rules as limited only by creature size and relying on readers to infer that the general weight limitations for dragging still apply.

I'm all for stopping Spirit Guardians shenanigans, but doing so by interpreting the rules in a way that nerfs dragging into practical uselessness I don't see as a net improvement.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

RAI cannot be that you start discussing exactly what is in the fanny pack of a random orc, and whether they look skinny or fat, and whether they had a hefty meal this morning or actually are on a diet because every pound might matter.

...especially because then everyone will just make themselves dragging-immune by filling their backpack with rocks, one pound short of their carrying capacity...

 

[Zardnaar]

I stand by my opinion that the rules are in conflict, even though I agree that there is no mathematical obstacle to applying them both simultaneously. Instead, the conflict I see is in the purpose of the rules.

Specifically, I read the grappling rules as designed to enable one creature to drag another, not to further limit dragging beyond the speed restrictions on dragging inert objects. Far from enabling dragging, by applying both movement limitations simultaneously, one average human (carry capacity 150 lbs., weight 165 lbs., 30' speed) could only drag another average human 5' per round, and that only if they take the Dash action. That the average case would fail to allow practically useful or even vaguely realistic dragging speeds I see as further evidence that the rules are in conflict. If dragging any meaningful distance was indeed restricted only to strong characters dragging lighter creatures, I think the grappling rules would have been written in a way to make that additional limitation clear, rather than presenting the grappling rules as limited only by creature size and relying on readers to infer that the general weight limitations for dragging still apply.

I'm all for stopping Spirit Guardians shenanigans, but doing so by interpreting the rules in a way that nerfs dragging into practical uselessness I don't see as a net improvement.

It's not just spirit guardians.

Yolandes Majestic whatever has similar issues to spirit guardians except the spell can push you back out.

Setting up push, shove, repelling blast and other shenanigans on subsequent turns no cheese required.

Those effects are readily accessible now via weapon mastery.

 

[Oofta]

Oops

 

[Oofta]

I stand by my opinion that the rules are in conflict, even though I agree that there is no mathematical obstacle to applying them both simultaneously. Instead, the conflict I see is in the purpose of the rules.

Specifically, I read the grappling rules as designed to enable one creature to drag another, not to further limit dragging beyond the speed restrictions on dragging inert objects. Far from enabling dragging, by applying both movement limitations simultaneously, one average human (carry capacity 150 lbs., weight 165 lbs., 30' speed) could only drag another average human 5' per round, and that only if they take the Dash action. That the average case would fail to allow practically useful or even vaguely realistic dragging speeds I see as further evidence that the rules are in conflict. If dragging any meaningful distance was indeed restricted only to strong characters dragging lighter creatures, I think the grappling rules would have been written in a way to make that additional limitation clear, rather than presenting the grappling rules as limited only by creature size and relying on readers to infer that the general weight limitations for dragging still apply.

I'm all for stopping Spirit Guardians shenanigans, but doing so by interpreting the rules in a way that nerfs dragging into practical uselessness I don't see as a net improvement.

Someone doesn't suddenly become weightless just because you're carrying them. By your logic you could drag a horse around with you, after all you can grapple any creature up to one size larger than you.

I don't see a conflict even if you don't care for the rule. But this is a separate topic.

 

[FrogReaver]

I stand by my opinion that the rules are in conflict, even though I agree that there is no mathematical obstacle to applying them both simultaneously. Instead, the conflict I see is in the purpose of the rules.

Specifically, I read the grappling rules as designed to enable one creature to drag another, not to further limit dragging beyond the speed restrictions on dragging inert objects. Far from enabling dragging, by applying both movement limitations simultaneously, one average human (carry capacity 150 lbs., weight 165 lbs., 30' speed) could only drag another average human 5' per round, and that only if they take the Dash action. That the average case would fail to allow practically useful or even vaguely realistic dragging speeds I see as further evidence that the rules are in conflict. If dragging any meaningful distance was indeed restricted only to strong characters dragging lighter creatures, I think the grappling rules would have been written in a way to make that additional limitation clear, rather than presenting the grappling rules as limited only by creature size and relying on readers to infer that the general weight limitations for dragging still apply.

I'm all for stopping Spirit Guardians shenanigans, but doing so by interpreting the rules in a way that nerfs dragging into practical uselessness I don't see as a net improvement.

Just to note. I dont care whether dragging is useless or the greatest thing ever. Unlike your reading of RAW mine doesn’t depend on my druthers. I’m not trying to force a reading to get rid of spirit guardian shenanigans nor force one to make dragging less useless.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm comparing to PHB to PHB not phb to all of 3.5. I'm finding way more combos and a lot of 2014 ones are also intact.

Monk 5/ranger 1 with nick, tavern brawler, 18 dex 14 strength. Daggers, hunters mark.

1d8+1d4+1d6+6 damage one focus point 5 attacks.

Not clear where the d4 is coming from? Assuming you mean it to be tavern brawler, but that doesn’t add d4 damage it replaces your normal unarmed damage with a d4.

Also you have the normal bonus action issues of trying to bonus action hunters mark and bonus action attack. Rough estimate is that typically you’ll lose a bonus action to hunters mark every other turn, though it’s highly encounter dependent.