D&D (2024) PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

[FrogReaver]

Well anyone doing it probably has 16 strength minimum.

Most 4-5 person parties have 1 or 2 16 str PCs at most. Most of those aren’t taking the grappler feat.

And the feat doesn't say your dragging them.

Of course it doesn’t. The grapple condition does.

Athletics check to escape grapple saving throws to set it up.

Which means not a great chance to land a grapple. Also of note that an enemy trying to end a grapple doesn’t require an action now.

 

[Zardnaar]

Most 4-5 person parties have 1 or 2 16 str PCs at most. Most of those aren’t taking the grappler feat.

Of course it doesn’t. The grapple condition does.

Which means not a great chance to land a grapple. Also of note that an enemy trying to end a grapple doesn’t require an action now.

All I'm saying if you want to do it here's how.
Repelling blast into emanations seens to be better tbh. No real need to cheese carrying the cleric around.

Seen the new yolandes spell?

 

[FrogReaver]

Also of note, 2024 rules don’t take the grapples athletics check into account. It uses the save dc for both the grapple attempt and the escape dc.

 

[FrogReaver]

All I'm saying if you want to do it here's how.
Repelling blast into emanations seens to be better tbh. No real need to cheese carrying the cleric around.

In that level 5-10 range repelling blast can push 10ft per attack. Most turns you probably land 1 attack. Occasionally you may land 2. Why on earth is the enemy staying within 10ft of an emanation?

Point being, it’s very situational unless you devote countless resources to the tactic.

Seen the new yolandes spell?

Yes. 5th level spell. Tiny damage. Tiny aoe. Makes your wizard have to stay close to the enemy (10 ft radius around self) does 14 damage save for half. Only 1 save per turn.

I’m thoroughly underwhelmed.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I'm not being hyperbolic

Is every Zaardnar thread a masterclass in hyperbole, or is it just that those are the only ones I foolishly click on?

PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

 

[tetrasodium]

I love that the people who look at the playtest/2024 grapple mechanics and say "it's not broken" rather than "holy heck, this is going to cause problems" / "This is broken" are also suggesting that the gm add & define drag in a way that tries to code around the broken mechanic rather than expecting an errata from the industry leading 800 pound gorilla who shrugged off playtest concerns to publish that grapple anyways.

The only reason playtest reactions were over nebulous undefined problems grapple invited was because we never saw any relevant spells/abilities and left open the idea that wotc would avoid the obvious problem grapple allows somewhere on the other end.

 

[NotAYakk]

Monk 5/ranger 1 with nick, tavern brawler, 18 dex 14 strength. Daggers, hunters mark.

1d8+1d4+1d6+6 damage one focus point 5 attacks.

Nick without Two Weapon fighting style is no stat to damage.
Hunter's mark requires a bonus action. 4/day.
Monk 5 gives you d8 monk damage.

First turn. HM (bonus action)
Action (2 attacks 1 nick) for 1d8+4+1d8+4+1d8+3d6 (32)
Second turn. Action (2 attacks 1 nick) same as above. (32)
Bonus Action: Flurry (2 attacks) for 1d8+4+1d6 x2. (24)

3 turn damage is: 32*3+24*2=144, or 48 DPR.

20 strength fighter with GWM and GWF using a greatsword.
16 damage per swing, 32 damage per round, plus action surge and 40% chance of crit, is 140.8.
46.9 DPR.

So a brain-dead "I am a fighter swinging a big sword" is 1.1 DPR (2.3%) lower DPR, and exceeds it if there are multiple mooks to fight: exceed the above monk, you just need to drop a foe to 0 HP and get the bonus action attack (on a turn you didn't crit basically).

Ie, the build isn't OP compared to other less convoluted 2024 builds damage wise. How does it compare to 2014 high damage builds?

In 2014, a L 6 human BM XBE SS would do 52.5 DPR at -3 to hit. So 15% of swings that would be hit above instead miss. But we add in precision strike and use it when we miss by 4 or less (20% of swings) which more than makes up for the -3 to hit; with 4 superiority dice and a 20% chance to use them, this lasts for 20 attacks between short rests or almost 7 rounds (longer than the above Ki expenditure does).

Then we add action surge.

So 64 DPR using 2014 PHB. This is 33% more damage than the 2024 ranger/monk. Now, this is a high damage 2014 build, but the point of the thread was that 2024 was more OP than 2014?

This monk/ranger isn't OP compared to 2014 PHB. I mean, it might be better than a 2014 ranger, but that isn't the standard of OP.

I could also do simple 2014 GWM Barbarian which is in the same damage range and accuracy as that ranger/monk. (49.1 DPR; the -5 to hit very roughly cancels out with advantage. This includes a 40% chance of a crit leading to an extra attack).

How about a vanilla 2014 L 6 Gloomstalker with SS? 22 damage per shot, 52.8 DPR at net -3 to hit. Same damage range as your OP monk, and Ranger was considered a weak class to go 6 levels in.

Like, what am I missing? Why is this OP?

Wait, I think I forgot tavern bralwer damage reroll? So 1s get a reroll. 1d8 with goes from a 4.5 average to... 4.94, or +0.44 per d8. At 5d8 per round that is an extra 2.2 DPR; nearly rounding error.

Oh wait, are you having Tavern Brawler's 1d4 damage stacking with Monk unarmed strike damage? Laugh, ok.

That is why vague complains are a bit of a problem. You can't tell what the complaint is. It could be "I don't think a monk should deal damage near that of a fighter with a greatsword", or it could be "I have read the rules so that tavern brawler and monk unarmed attack stacks like in BG3, so each unarmed attack deals 1d8+1d4+strength+dexterity+1d6 damage". And all that is expressed is "L5 monk with dagger and L1 ranger with nick mastery". It could mean either claim, and nobody can tell, because the OP complaint is vague.

Yes, if you read tavern brawler as adding to monk damage, you can probably push the limits of OP. Might I suggest not misreading it that way?

 

[Zardnaar]

Nick without Two Weapon fighting style is no stat to damage.
Hunter's mark requires a bonus action. 4/day.
Monk 5 gives you d8 monk damage.

First turn. HM (bonus action)
Action (2 attacks 1 nick) for 1d8+4+1d8+4+1d8+3d6 (32)
Second turn. Action (2 attacks 1 nick) same as above. (32)
Bonus Action: Flurry (2 attacks) for 1d8+4+1d6 x2. (24)

3 turn damage is: 32*3+24*2=144, or 48 DPR.

20 strength fighter with GWM and GWF using a greatsword.
16 damage per swing, 32 damage per round, plus action surge and 40% chance of crit, is 140.8.
46.9 DPR.

To match the above monk, you just need to drop a foe to 0 HP over those 3 rounds.

In 2014, a L 6 human BM XBE SS would do 52.5 DPR at -3 to hit. So 15% of swings that would be hit above instead miss. But we add in precision strike and use it when we miss by 4 or less (20% of swings) which more than makes up for the -3 to hit; with 4 superiority dice and a 20% chance to use them, this lasts for 20 attacks between short rests or almost 7 rounds (longer than the above Ki expenditure does).

Then we add action surge.

So 64 DPR using 2014 PHB.

The ranger isn't OP compared to 2014 PHB. I mean, it might be better than a 2014 ranger, but that isn't the standard of OP.

I could also do simple 2014 GWM Barbarian which is in the same damage range and accuracy as that ranger/monk.

How about a vanilla 2014 L 6 Gloomstalker with SS? 22 damage per shot, 52.8 DPR at net -3 to hit. Same damage range as your OP monk, and Ranger was considered a weak class to go 6 levels in.

Like, what am I missing?

It's similar to the -5/+10 parts without the -5 part.

Later on it's similar to a crossbow expert+sharpshooter levels of damage without the -5 part.
And not requiring two feats that got nerfed.

 

[Zardnaar]

PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

I listed the various things that popped out immediately.

Alot are countering but 3.5 Druid or 3.5 listing non core options. Druid was also least popular Class.

Level 10 cleric can cast hallow as an action making everything vulnerable.

We have been going over the grapple builds. Potentially more damage than 3.5 Druid at similar levels.

Spirit guardians and a fast cleric has been covered. Abuseable by carrying the cleric around.

It's the sheer quantity of abuse one can do even without cheesing it. Fast cleric and repelling blast isn't that rare a combo or fast cleric by itself.

There's a lot more movement based effects with weapon masteries and things like world tree barbarians.

Basically it's not hard to do and doesn't require elaborate setups. And it's at levels people actually play (4--10).

 

[NotAYakk]

It's similar to the -5/+10 parts without the -5 part.

Later on it's similar to a crossbow expert+sharpshooter levels of damage without the -5 part.
And not requiring two feats that got nerfed.

"Similar"? I showed it was significantly less damage than 2014 XBE build.

So it is less OP than 2014. Which answers the question "no, 2024 PHB is not the most OP of all time".

And I also demonstrated that it isn't significantly outdamaging a really obvious "I am a fighter and I carry a big sword" build.

How about a 18 dex naked monk? 4d8+16 per round is 34 DPR at level 5. This "most OP" build does ... 48, 40% more than a monk that did absolutely nothing except get 18 dexterity.

Lets try Ranger 1 without the dagger or tavern brawler? That drops turn 1 damage down to 24, and turn 2+ is up to 48.

Nick trick gives +8 DPR with hunter's mark (every round), so 42/56/56

Doing fighter 1 instead of ranger 1 (for TWF) means the dagger nick is full damage, meaning you do 5d8+20 every round (42.5). Not as strong as ranger 1 hunter's mark splash. And you can get that full damage on nick by going ranger 2 anyhow.

Tavern brawler doesn't add much; 0.44 per unarmed attack. I guess you are just trying to stack some extra?

But I'm still not seeing the OP.

Lets try level 12ish? Monk 11/Ranger 1. HM round 1, dagger with nick.
Attack action: 1d10+1d6+5 x2 + 1d10+1d6 nick (37)
Flurry: 1d10+1d6+5 x3 (42)

Over 3 rounds that is 37*3+42*2, or 65 DPR. There is going to be 2-4 extra DPR from tavern brawler (at best).

Now, our naive level 12 Fighter with a greatsword, GWM and GWF style. 20 strength.
Attack action: 2d6(8)+9 for 17 per swing. 3 swings is 51 damage per action.
1 action surge over 3 rounds is 68 DPR.
6,3,3 attacks with 5% crit chance is a 26.5%, 14.3%, 14.3% chance of a crit, summing to 0.55 bonus action attacks.
Total DPR is 71.1.

I didn't use a subclass here (and neither did the monk/ranger), maybe there is something quirky that breaks stuff. But I'm not seeing it.

I mean, the nick combined with the dagger die size upgrade combined with the ranger splash for hunter's mark are all reasonably efficient ways to boost damage. I'm just missing the OP bit; we get something that is doing less than 50% more damage than a completely naive build, and doesn't outclass clear alternatives.