D&D (2024) PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

[Zardnaar]

Honestly we need to either accept the whole PH or not. Arbitrarily limiting it to the parts that one guy has decided they like using makes the whole discussion meaningless.

It's where the gane will actually break.

5E PCs are generally more powerful than 3E ones at lower level to begin with 3.5 just have more options.

WotC has also said 70% of games are 1-7, 10% hit level 10. 1% hit epic levels. Typical campaign is 6 sessions.

If I say a Wizard suck comparatively I'm not referring to level 20 wish abuse more 1-7.

Main reason being odds are a Wizard player is unlikely to reach those levels where the theoretical power level pays off. Similar to a level 18 Druid with natural spell.

Even in 3.5 most of the abuse was theoretical forum crafting. Most players didn't have the required books to do it or the required knowledge. Or if they did self restraint or enjoying the theory crafting. Even then a lot of it boiled down to key feats the DM could easily say no to because people forgot splatbook access was also DM purview.

You probably won't see cheesecake combo in 3.5. In 5E 2014 sharpshooter was more abusable than the 3.x version imho you probably never saw.

3.0 was a bit different because some of the PrCs were crazy in first 3 levels or so.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's where the gane will actually break.

The entire premise of the thread is what PH is 'hilariously broken', not which one if 'hilariously broken inside some very narrow and personal constraints'.

 

[Zardnaar]

The entire premise of the thread is what PH is 'hilariously broken', not which one if 'hilariously broken inside some very narrow and personal constraints'.

Comparatively it is. It's more powerful than 5E which was a high powered edition.

Notice the classes are still heavily front loaded in the1st ten levels. Hell mostly 3-9.

I suspect I've played more 5E than most. And more than most here. Some of the most powerful things in 5E.

1. Wizard wish + simulacra

2. Druid+ Natural Spell.

Games effected 0.

Relative to what they're facing 5E 2024 is the most powerful PCs ever imho at levels people actually play. The traditional sweet spot is mostly 3-7 after all. Level 1 and 2 might be exceptions that may be 4E but 4E monsters are buckets of hp comparatively so hard to say.

I suspect a big reason 4E crashed and burned apart from the playstyle was they fixed problems no one actually had outside of early 2000 Twitter mob equivalent.

The big 3.5 problem was actually numbers porn not it's power level.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Comparatively it is. It's more powerful than 5E which was a high powered edition.

But there are (depending on your count) 6 to 27 other editions to compare it to.

And the only 'high powered' thing about 5e is making it harder for the DM to unfairness the PCs to death.

3(.5)e had Codzilla, 4e had built in epic levels.

You are comparing apples to a few very specifically selected clementines you're calling oranges.

I suspect a big reason 4E crashed and burned apart from the playstyle was they fixed problems no one actually had outside of early 2000 Twitter mob equivalent.

IF it had actually crashed and burned the way some people keep saing, it's be more about the problems wholly made up by the 5000 people on the WotC boards and transmitted like a disease to the rest of the internet.

And even then no one tried to say its PH was the most op of all time for some reason I won't speculate on.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Just remember guys, nobody cares about balance. That's why we have an extensive thread complaining about overpowered combinations.

 

[Zardnaar]

But there are (depending on your count) 6 to 27 other editions to compare it to.

And the only 'high powered' thing about 5e is making it harder for the DM to unfairness the PCs to death.

3(.5)e had Codzilla, 4e had built in epic levels.

You are comparing apples to a few very specifically selected clementines you're calling oranges.


IF it had actually crashed and burned the way some people keep saing, it's be more about the problems wholly made up by the 5000 people on the WotC boards and transmitted like a disease to the rest of the internet.

And even then no one tried to say its PH was the most op of all time for some reason I won't speculate on.

I'm using wotc own numbers here.

CoDzilla was always over rated online. It's mostly just the Druid. The least popular Class as well. Cleric requires non core stiff to do it's thing mostly complete divine.

I do play older editions and it's no secret I'm writing my own.

I've gone back through 3.5, Pathfinder, 4E phb. And Star Wars Saga. Have another look at the 3.5 phb. There's just not much there in class features or design.

The power is in feats and spells. 3.5 phb just doesn't have much going on. All the infamous ones are outside the phb. Exception being natural spell.

That leaved clerics for the most part. Without being able to apply metamagic for free and nake their buff spells last 24 hours there's just not that much they can do. Buff spells scale to potentially problematic levels of stacking around level 12. Divine power got nerfed from 30 and you generally have to hard cast it vs having it running 24/7.


Outside the Druid there's just not much there until you hit the higher levels. I suspect sod all people played those levels back then either. Even then it was known higher level stuff didn't sell we have sales figures now essentially confirming it.

Then as now I'm fairly certain the vast majority of the player base are casuals. The biggest selling D&Ds are the simpler ones. 5E, basic line, 1E.The worst selling ones apart from OD&D are 3.5 and 4E.

ENworlds skews older, it's a bubble, a lot don't actually play D&D and it's completely useless for the most part in terns of what players actually like. Everyone has their favorite edition and are fairly entrenched. For the recent editions you have the WotC can do no wrong and wotc crowds are awful both are equally useless.

I don't have a favorite it helps.

 

[Vaalingrade]

That leaved clerics for the most part. Without being able to apply metamagic for free and nake their buff spells last 24 hours there's just not that much they can do.

One of your examples of 5.5 being broken is a feat letting you cast buff spells with some level of efficiency. But now extending buffs to 24 hours is being handwaved.

I don't even like 5x and I'm just not vibing with how bad this attempt to go after it is reaching for something to accuse it of.

 

[Zardnaar]

One of your examples of 5.5 being broken is a feat letting you cast buff spells with some level of efficiency. But now extending buffs to 24 hours is being handwaved.

I don't even like 5x and I'm just not vibing with how bad this attempt to go after it is reaching for something to accuse it of.

That feat wasn't in the 3.5 phb. And that's what I'm comparing. Rereading theyre all strictly optional as well DM can say no. Saying no to PHB your rewriting the core rules in effect.

It's not just the broken stuff just general overall power. 5E fighter is way better than 3.5 one. So is the rogue, bard, monk. Paladin, cleric etc. And 2024 powercrept most of it.

That's not comparing say boom spells. 5d6 3.5 one is better than 8d6 5E one.

 

[Vaalingrade]

5E fighter is way better than 3.5 one.

That is not difficult.

So is the rogue

Not really. The rogue tends to keep the same power relative to the other classes across editions.

The only power-up they really got was not having entire creature types you just mean nothing in a fight with.

, bard

3x players didn't know how to play a bard. A 3x bard gets a suggestion with a DC equal to their perform check. They get access to all the good control spells in an edition where the playerbase (and the DM) had no idea what control was nor a defense against it.

By level 3, a 3x bard can just turn off any encounter with beings with minds using fascinate and walk past.

,monk. Paladin

Again: not hard.

cleric

Have you met the 3x cleric? Despite having the worthless baggage of Turn Undead eating a quarter of their design space, they're still an S-tier class while the complaint about the 5x cleric is 'they can heal slightly good, but not really'.

 

[Zardnaar]

That is not difficult.


Not really. The rogue tends to keep the same power relative to the other classes across editions.

The only power-up they really got was not having entire creature types you just mean nothing in a fight with.


3x players didn't know how to play a bard. A 3x bard gets a suggestion with a DC equal to their perform check. They get access to all the good control spells in an edition where the playerbase (and the DM) had no idea what control was nor a defense against it.

By level 3, a 3x bard can just turn off any encounter with beings with minds using fascinate and walk past.


Again: not hard.


Have you met the 3x cleric? Despite having the worthless baggage of Turn Undead eating a quarter of their design space, they're still an S-tier class while the complaint about the 5x cleric is 'they can heal slightly good, but not really'.

I have played cleric in 3.5. Their power is non core or mostly later.

5E divine domains are better than 3.5 phb which are mostly just spells.

Cleric buff doesn't become that good until level 7 or 8 in 3.5. (Divine power and the +1 spells become +2) Compared with 5E bless well yeah.
You're still limited by the action economy though. Eg hard casting divine power.

To break the cleric you more or less need complete divine and whatever book had night sticks. Or be very high level (5E breaks at similar level imho eg 13+).