D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[Oofta]

Oh the preference is fine. It’s the logic of stated reason that’s flawed.

If anyone said “I want to maintain control” I wouldn’t push back at all. But that’s not what people tend to say. They couch it in the idea that a player deciding anything beyond what they already know per the rules and whatever setting details the DM has deigned to share with them is somehow anti-immersive or some similar sentiment.

But equally as anti-immersive (if not more) is the idea that there’s one creative force behind everything else in the game. That the DM’s near complete creative control of the game world is not anti-immersive at all.

So yeah… appeals to “in the real world I can’t decide X” just fail, in my eyes.

How about just trying to accept that different people have different preferences instead of trying to cast it as some kind of power play?

 

[Oofta]

Is the implication meant to be that, essentially, me and my group have lower standards about what's plausible or acceptable?

Different does not mean lower.

 

[pemerton]

We can't just decide that for this particular task we are going to succeed

Reliable Talent?

but if we do we're less likely to succeed the next time.

And this is called trying.

Like when I push myself really hard now, knowing that I'll be too exhausted at the end to do it again tomorrow.

 

[pemerton]

I excerpted this section from your longer post because I wanted to comment on your final inference in particular. I find it fascinating because my natural inference would be almost exactly the opposite: that some players care more about the core essence of the fiction rather than the particular story or literary form. We may have very different views of fiction, storytelling, and literature at a surprisingly base level. Definitely food for thought!

I don't know what you have in mind.

I'm making a fairly simple point, that playing classic D&D by its rules will not produce a sequence of events, stakes, realisations etc that is anything like (say) Ged's growth from child to wizard in A Wizard of Earthsea.

 

[pemerton]

it isn’t though, you can always come up with some highly improbable nonsense, it remains just that

The challenge is that myself and I expect hawkeye can often come up with plausible, appropriate reasons.

Right. Those who talk about "improbable nonsense" seem to be intending to condemn others' play, but to my ears seem to be condemning only their own.

 

[Oofta]

Reliable Talent?

One of the rules I dislike. Still doesn't guarantee success at the level you get it but I still think it's a poor rule.

And this is called trying.

Like when I push myself really hard now, knowing that I'll be too exhausted at the end to do it again tomorrow.

But pushing hard does not in any way guarantee success. In fact, at times it can be counterproductive.

 

[pemerton]

But pushing hard does not in any way guarantee success.

Never?

 

[Oofta]

Never?

So if I push really, really hard I can win the lottery tomorrow?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Oh the preference is fine. It’s the logic of stated reason that’s flawed.

If anyone said “I want to maintain control” I wouldn’t push back at all. But that’s not what people tend to say. They couch it in the idea that a player deciding anything beyond what they already know per the rules and whatever setting details the DM has deigned to share with them is somehow anti-immersive or some similar sentiment.

But equally as anti-immersive (if not more) is the idea that there’s one creative force behind everything else in the game. That the DM’s near complete creative control of the game world is not anti-immersive at all.

So yeah… appeals to “in the real world I can’t decide X” just fail, in my eyes.

Immersion is subjective, so how one feels immersed really isn't a question of fact or flawed reasoning.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Is the implication meant to be that, essentially, me and my group have lower standards about what's plausible or acceptable?

Not at all. But you and your group clearly have different standards than me and mine. Different has no inherent judgement of value.