D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[Oofta]

Don't the rules associated with D&D's 'most successful years' give players the ability to decide when their character is lucky, when they're inspired, and all the player-authored worldbuilding background traits that we were talking about?

Which has little or nothing to do with world building or roles of who is responsible for what aspects of the game other than a couple of background features that I think were poorly worded.

 

[Xetheral]

I don’t think I see them as quite as incompatible as you. But I would agree that exercising control may be about something else.

What do you think some examples could be in the context of RPGs?

One example is that the DM exercising control can be "about" providing the experience their players seek. (Assuming, of course, a table with aligned playstyle preferences.)

I can expand on that example from personal experience. As a player, the experience I seek is one where (among other things) the fictional world I'm exploring vis-a-vis my character is both (a) tailored to my interests and (b) doesn't feel like it's tailored to my interests. In practice, balancing my preferences requires someone else to have most of the authorial control over the setting, because it's very hard to achieve (b) if I'm the one doing the tailoring. So giving authorial control over the setting to the DM is part-and-parcel of achieving the experience I seek, but it's not "about" giving up control as it would be if I were actively seeking a sense of abnegation, submission, or passivity.

Indeed, one of the "other things" about the experience I seek as a player is the feeling of achieving self-determination in the face of obstacles. In practice, achieving that feeling requires the players to (collectively) have a high degree of control over the direction of the campaign by way of setting their characters' goals and making strategic choices (because its hard to have a feeling of self-determination otherwise), while simultaneously not having authorial control over the obstacles faced (because overcoming self-imposed obstacles, while potentially satisfying, is a different kind of feeling than what I'm seeking).

Thus, for me as a player, the experience I seek requires giving a great deal of control over the setting and the obstacles within it to the DM, while keeping a large measure of control over the direction of the campaign for myself (and my fellow players). Thus, when the DM "exercises [that] control", it's "about" providing the desired experience, and comes with a highly positive, laudable connotation. In contrast, saying the DM exercising control is "about" control suggests that the control is an end in its own right, which carries a strongly negative connotation.

 

[TwoSix]

Dunno, I took the brightline down to see BabyMetal back on 11/6 because rob zombie gave them a fairly public defending a few years ago & thought it was a pretty awesome concert even with the language barrier making their songs about as understood as the average Ramstein song.

Naming groups who have been around for 30+ years is helping me demonstrate my point.

 

[TwoSix]

But then you follow up with calling the playstyle a "20th century atavism". Atavism? I will admit it is in the running for the $20 word of the day so I had to look it up. From Merriam Webster dictionary, the best definition I can find for someone who supports the style:

an individual or character that manifests atavism : throwback​

He was a magnificent atavism, a man so purely primitive that he was of the type that came into the world before the development of the moral nature.​

- Jack London​

Basically saying that people only support DM as the author of the world because we're a relic of the past.

Man, if "atavism" is a "$20 word", inflation really IS rampant.

Then you go on to assert that the playstyle "only has a tangential connection to how most modern groups play". Yet the rules of D&D as printed in the 21st century continue to support the DM as author of the world. It's pretty clear in the 2024 DMG (underline added).

Embrace the Shared Story. D&D is about telling a story as a group, so let the other players contribute through the words and deeds of their characters. Encourage players to engage by asking them what their characters are doing.​

​

It is not some archaic callback to the past to limit player control to their characters. It's the basic assumption of the game and has been during it's most successful years ever. Now, either huge swathes of players are ignoring that advice and the advice of every other D&D core book or you have no basis for your statement about "most modern groups".

And if that quote had the word "only" in it, maybe it would be more compelling for your interpretation. But almost every RPG in existence, all the way to DM-less storygames like Fiasco, have the players contribute "through the words and deeds of their character".

Note, too, that the quote also says "D&D is about telling a story as a group", which is a statement that you and several others have refuted just in this thread.

So you're making a false appeal to authority. Calling people that follow the guidance in the book solely because we're throwbacks to ancient days is not exactly putting those people in a positive light. Then you talk about modern groups which generally means more enlightened ideas to double down on it.

I would also point out that I never mentioned the 2024 DMG, or any one particular book. Any "authority" is simply my grasp of the overall TTRPG playerbase by my own observations. I could be wrong! But I'm not "appealing" to anyone.

So I call a spade a spade. If I'm totally misunderstanding your position feel free to explain.

And done!

 

[Oofta]

Man, if "atavism" is a "$20 word", inflation really IS rampant.


And if that quote had the word "only" in it, maybe it would be more compelling for your interpretation. But almost every RPG in existence, all the way to DM-less storygames like Fiasco, have the players contribute "through the words and deeds of their character".

Note, too, that the quote also says "D&D is about telling a story as a group", which is a statement that you and several others have refuted just in this thread.


I would also point out that I never mentioned the 2024 DMG, or any one particular book. Any "authority" is simply my grasp of the overall TTRPG playerbase by my own observations. I could be wrong! But I'm not "appealing" to anyone.


And done!

Of course there are DM-less games out there. There are plenty of options for people that don't like D&D's core assumptions, plenty of different options to tell a story as a group. But I see no reason to believe that there is a significant percentage of the people who choose to play D&D who ignore the core guidance. This is a D&D forum on a D&D General thread. You made it very clear you were talking about D&D. It has been and continues to be very clear in the D&D core books that there is a separation of concerns and the same basic guidance that I quoted can be found in every iteration of the game. I quoted the most recent DMG because if there were a groundswell of change in how people play the game I would have expected at least a mention of it and I can't.

The full definition of atavism doesn't change the meaning, I chose the option that best fit. In all cases, it's a throwback to the past. Although you are correct in one sense, you were making an appeal to popularity, not an appeal to authority. My bad. I still disagree because there's no evidence of widespread popularity, but I should keep my fallacies straight.

 

[TwoSix]

Of course there are DM-less games out there. There are plenty of options for people that don't like D&D's core assumptions, plenty of different options to tell a story as a group. But I see no reason to believe that there is a significant percentage of the people who choose to play D&D who ignore the core guidance. This is a D&D forum on a D&D General thread. You made it very clear you were talking about D&D. It has been and continues to be very clear in the D&D core books that there is a separation of concerns and the same basic guidance that I quoted can be found in every iteration of the game. I quoted the most recent DMG because if there were a groundswell of change in how people play the game I would have expected at least a mention of it and I can't.

That's just not true. It hasn't been the core assumption for a very long time and certainly isn't now.

D&D is neotrad now, and has been for quite some time. Characters come first, combat is second, and setting concerns are a distant third.

A game where you play the same DM-authored setting for 20+ years and have characters come and go is a distinct outlier.

 

[Oofta]

That's just not true. It hasn't been the core assumption for a very long time and certainly isn't now.

D&D is neotrad now, and has been for quite some time. Characters come first, combat is second, and setting concerns are a distant third.

A game where you play the same DM-authored setting for 20+ years and have characters come and go is a distinct outlier.

Where do the guidance in any book contradict what I've said? The DM acts as referee, authors the world, controls all the NPCs, designs the encounters. The players are responsible for what their characters say and do. I can copy/past more quotes but I don't see the point.

Again, if I've misunderstood what you've said feel free to explain.

 

[prabe]

A game where you play the same DM-authored setting for 20+ years and have characters come and go is a distinct outlier.

I'm running the second and third campaigns I've started in what I specifically intended to be a multi-campaign setting, and even though those campaigns do not have players coming and going, and are at least intended to go 1-20, what I'm doing is very much an outlier.

 

[tetrasodium]

Naming groups who have been around for 30+ years is helping me demonstrate my point.

Not really, you missed the important part

Spoiler

The ages of the members of the Japanese metal band Babymetal are:
Su-Metal (Suzuka Nakamoto): Born December 20, 1997, she is currently 26 years old
Yui-Metal (Yui Mizuno): Born June 20, 1999, she is currently 25 years old
Moa-Metal (Moa Kikuchi): Born July 4, 1999, she is currently 25 years old
Babymetal is a Japanese band that combines heavy metal and Japanese idol genres. The band was formed in 2010 and has released multiple albums and won several awards. In 2014, when the band was on average 14.7 years old, they became the youngest female act to perform at the Budokan.

The band I went to see wasn't even born 30 years ago. Coincidentally, the brightline I took has only been running about 5.

"OSR" might not be a hotbed of innovation°, but 2024 d&d is just more of the same 2014. Innovation with new stuff today is found in stuff like draw steel and maybe dc20 while d&d is locked in a holding pattern with a frozen play style

°or it could be I dunno &not arguing either way.

 

[TwoSix]

Where do the guidance in any book contradict what I've said? The DM acts as referee, authors the world, controls all the NPCs, designs the encounters. The players are responsible for what their characters say and do. I can copy/past more quotes but I don't see the point.

Again, if I've misunderstood what you've said feel free to explain.

Nothing you just said contradicts anything I just said.