D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[hawkeyefan]

I am not ignoring differences, I am pointing out that there aren’t any

Between a cobbler and a wizard? This is a strange hill to die on.

just like your differences between PCs and NPCs… you realize Ironman is pretend too, right?

Well the differences between PCs and NPCs pretty clear. They clearly follow some different rules, even if they share many.

And yes, Iron Man is pretend. So is Spider-Man. When I watch an Iron Man movie or read an Iron Man comic, if Spider-Man doesn’t appear as relevant to the story, then he’s not “doing” anything.

How is this not being rude and disrespectful towards the preferences of others?

The comment is not at all directed at anyone’s preferences unless they prefer crappy analogies to useful ones.

Persuasion/deception is not mind control. A skill check can not make NPCs with no reason to be willing to even spit on an adventurer if the adventurer was on fire or even pretend to know that adventurer. For that you need to alter their mind & that generally goesinto spells once sporting a tag like "[Evil]"

But the background features don’t let you influence anyone no matter what. They let you influence certain people under certain circumstances. Which is what skill use also allows.

 

[prabe]

Well it might be possible most of the time but is rolling something akin to a Streetwise roll that terrible. The fact something works without any chance of failure doesn't feel right to me. Even if the DC is 5 and 99% of the time you get it, there is in fact at least some chance something could go wrong.

My approach is that outright failure--either you can't make contact, or they're implacably hostile--seems as though it should be rare, and if it's not based on known (or at least visible) fictional positioning, then it's perhaps itself something that PC might want to look into; and the PC can plausibly mishandle the contact and get nothing (or worse) out of it.

EDIT: If 5e had kept Streetwise as a thing people could choose to be good at, that'd work.

 

[Oofta]

What is your question?

This one D&D General - Playstyle vs Mechanics

Any scenario where it doesn't make sense for a message to be sent. Is a player is a jerk if they attempt to send a message. Is the DM is a jerk for saying no? Not different scenarios, exact same situation.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Have you been reading this thread? Can you really claim in good faith there aren't people posting in this thread who at least come across as declaring just about every usage some people suggest as a "nope?" Do you really think jumping to "You're on some other plane of existence where neither you nor anyone you've ever met has ever been" is a scenario being posited in good faith?

Its an example of a situation where the rule might legitimately not work, not a claim that DMs will usually say "NOPE" when the rule is invoked.

 

[mamba]

Did any players try to do such a thing though? I'm guessing no. The starting point has to be that if you have reasonable players they will try reasonable things.

is a player using a rule that says that they can do a thing unreasonable when using it?

 

[prabe]

Its an example of a situation where the rule might legitimately not work, not a claim that DMs will usually say "NOPE" when the rule is invoked.

Sure. And it's almost certainly a fictional position where the player wouldn't expect it to work; at least, any player who argued it would, would seem to be coming from a place of very bad faith. So why does it keep coming up?

 

[Mort]

This one D&D General - Playstyle vs Mechanics

Any scenario where it doesn't make sense for a message to be sent.

Since the DM came up with the scenario, it is on them to let the players know when certain features wouldn't work or would not be appropriate. Especially if the scenario is a campaign constant.

If the DM plans on doing strangers in a strange land but does not tell the players and does not warn them they are taking features/abilities that will be noped - yes, they are being a jerk.

Is a player is a jerk if they attempt to send a message. Is the DM is a jerk for saying no? Not different scenarios, exact same situation.

If a player is making clearly unreasonable demands, especially if they have been told so and continue to do it (like that buddies with Odin request guy you mentioned from a while back) then yes, they are being a jerk.

 

[Oofta]

Have you been reading this thread? Can you really claim in good faith there aren't people posting in this thread who at least come across as declaring just about every usage some people suggest as a "nope?" Do you really think jumping to "You're on some other plane of existence where neither you nor anyone you've ever met has ever been" is a scenario being posited in good faith?

Your players never travel to other planes of existence? Never stumble across a lost civilization? Never get thrown into some weird alternate universe and have to struggle to get back home? Talk about a lack of imagination on part of the DM.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You mean this?

Uh, the obvious answer is allowing high-STR characters to carry, or at least move things that'd be impracticable in the real world. A glaive sized for a storm giant, for instance (a sentient one, that refused to be reduced). Even though someone had a belt of storm giant strength, recovering that thing was a bit of a logistical challenge, even once they found it.

Things like languages--including Thieves' Cant--seem to be in a similar "this works because the game says it does, real world can take a flying leap" place.

I would be happy to have things like that operate by physics rather than game rules (or rather, game rules should operate more like physics in this case).

 

[mamba]

If players are unreasonable and invoke the ability without it making any sense then I agree that's jerk behaviour.

I don't have any players that would do that. A simple 'OK how do you go about it?' is probably all that's required.

I can think immediately of four ways to justify use of the trait in that situation

basically proving @Oofta ’s point…

You go from ‘my players would never use a feature if it is unreasonable’ to ‘here are ways to use it in the unreasonable situation you set up and I totally would try one or all of them (while misrepresenting the actual feature)’ in the span of a few sentences