D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[EzekielRaiden]

They can. That's my point. Get in the gear, get leveled up, get your party, and go lay a beating on the Big Bad. That's the martials purpose.

Get buffed, swing a mighty sword, and hit things.

And when the party is facing problems for which "hit things" has no utility nor purpose? 'Cause we have no end of posters going on about how the game being too combat-focused is an enormous detriment.

 

[Scribe]

And when the party is facing problems for which "hit things" has no utility nor purpose? 'Cause we have no end of posters going on about how the game being too combat-focused is an enormous detriment.

Sure, but those posters are wrong, and I dont worry about people who are wrong, you cannot save everyone.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Part of what happens in these arguments time and time again is that nobody is defining what the upper level of these mythic martials can do. We get vague allusions to characters with different abilities, but no real limits.

Okay. Why should we, when magic's limit is "whatever you can think of"?

Unless we also set limits on magic, it straight-up isn't acceptable to demand hard, inviolable limits on martial power. Unless and until you agree to something like that, this argument is even more pointless than the one you wish to dismiss.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Sure, but those posters are wrong, and I dont worry about people who are wrong, you cannot save everyone.

They are far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far...
[Two hours later]
...far...far...far...too common to be ignored.

This isn't some tiny irrelevant minority. At the absolute bare minimum it's a sizable chunk of this very forum. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the constant hand-wringing about things like battle maps and minis, about a game that "serves" such things rather than having such things "serve" the game, about many other things besides.

 

[Scribe]

They are far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far...
[Two hours later]
...far...far...far...too common to be ignored.

This isn't some tiny irrelevant minority. At the absolute bare minimum it's a sizable chunk of this very forum. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the constant hand-wringing about things like battle maps and minis, about a game that "serves" such things rather than having such things "serve" the game, about many other things besides.

My friend, trust me when I say that however common they may or may not be, they are easily ignored.

People wring their hands over the must inane things in the world, some of the commentary I have seen on this site is beyond belief.

Ignore it. Look at the rules, look at how much is about combat, look at how many subclass perks are combat focused, look at all the statblocks.

Why be worried about people who are wrong?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Nah, this kind of Fighter never casts spells.

But, their capabilities are not limited by what a "normal person" could do, because they have the skill and superhuman ability to wield items that can shape the multiverse.

Because the difference between a Fighter and a Wizard isn't about combat capability, it's about what they're capable of in the narrative of the game, and this brings the Fighter to parity.

D&D's a magical game about magical people who do magical things and the Fighter and Rogue shouldn't be exempted from that (or, really, be relegated to "swing sword real good" / "hide real good").

Key problem: as I've argued for quite a while now, "magical" things are a very specific subset of supernatural things. "Magical" has so much baggage in D&D, it can't be the standard we use, or it 100% WILL be rejected by a ton of people. Doesn't matter if you're directly trying to do it for their benefit. Doesn't matter if you're using "magical" to mean anything that isn't "extremely plausible for an ordinary human to do". People will see or hear the word "magical" and reject it outright, because the baggage of "magic" is far too much to accept.

Which is why I keep saying that there needs to be a space for things that are--explicitly!--not magical, but which are still beyond the limits of the mundane. That space includes things like becoming so ridiculously skilled with X thing, that your skills legitimately go beyond what should be possible in our world, but which are in that liminal space between "definitely 100% mundane" and "definitely 100% supernatural."

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Why be worried about people who are wrong?

Because:

1. They already won one war. Why would ignoring them now suddenly change the success of their strategies?
2. They keep being a key voice and a key group which WotC bends over backwards to appease.

It doesn't matter how wrong someone is if they actually succeed at getting their perspective encoded into the rules.

 

[Scribe]

Because:

1. They already won one war. Why would ignoring them now suddenly change the success of their strategies?
2. They keep being a key voice and a key group which WotC bends over backwards to appease.

It doesn't matter how wrong someone is if they actually succeed at getting their perspective encoded into the rules.

....we are so much closer than we are apart.

I think we can leave it at this. I wish you good luck in your crusade.

 

[Clint_L]

no, why shouldn't a mundane martial be able to go toe-to-toe with gods, demons and eldritch abominations and come out victorious? they manage to in stories, they have in previous editions even! and if people want to play those kinds of characters then they should be able to.

Seems like you want to play a different game. Why not home brew that?

I'm serious - 5e has been incredibly successful. What makes you think that your personal taste here would be a better direction for the game? Like, for all players, not just for you?

There is not a widespread issue with fighters being considered underpowered, with players complaining about fighters, with them not being played. Most popular class in the game. So what's the problem, other than them not suiting your personal taste? Why do we need a solution if there's not a problem, and when those who don't like the current version are already empowered to do something about it?

 

[CreamCloud0]

Seems like you want to play a different game. Why not home brew that?

I'm serious - 5e has been incredibly successful. What makes you think that your personal taste here would be a better direction for the game? Like, for all players, not just for you?

There is not a widespread issue with fighters being considered underpowered, with players complaining about fighters, with them not being played. Most popular class in the game. So what's the problem, other than them not suiting your personal taste? Why do we need a solution if there's not a problem, and when those who don't like the current version are already empowered to do something about it?

it sounds like a different game? i didn't just imagine 4e right? like, i might not of played it but i've got a pretty solid understanding that 5e's older sibling had a whole range of purely 'martial' classes that managed to be mundane, powerful and effective through levels 1-20 didn't it?