D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

My point of listing the spells is to show the benchmarks for what a fighter should be able to accomplish. If a 5th level wizard can hit every single target in a 40 foot sphere, allowing a fighter some sort of flurry attack doesn’t seem like a stretch.

Heck they actually removed the volley ability from rangers. :(. Having a low grade fireball was apparently too much for non casters.

But, as @Lord Twig rightly points out, doing anything like this has too many 4e cooties and is a non starter.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Key problem: as I've argued for quite a while now, "magical" things are a very specific subset of supernatural things. "Magical" has so much baggage in D&D, it can't be the standard we use, or it 100% WILL be rejected by a ton of people. Doesn't matter if you're directly trying to do it for their benefit. Doesn't matter if you're using "magical" to mean anything that isn't "extremely plausible for an ordinary human to do". People will see or hear the word "magical" and reject it outright, because the baggage of "magic" is far too much to accept.

This design's premise is that, at least at high levels, we are going to embrace magic. That D&D is a game about magical characters doing magical things with magic, and that if you want a grittier game with lower stakes and more grounded kinds of fantasy, you're going to want to fit that in about the first 5-10 levels. Once you're slaying elder dragons and pit fiends and whatever, we're gonna assume you're doing that with magical help, and we're not going to pretend otherwise.

That may very well be a non-starter for some folks, but the reason I trotted it out there is to see if it really was.

It seems like it has a bit of traction, more than I thought it would, so I'd wager it's an avenue with exploring. It is a pretty big change from the assumptions of 5e, but since it relies on class features, it's not impossible to put it in the game as it is today...

Which is why I keep saying that there needs to be a space for things that are--explicitly!--not magical, but which are still beyond the limits of the mundane. That space includes things like becoming so ridiculously skilled with X thing, that your skills legitimately go beyond what should be possible in our world, but which are in that liminal space between "definitely 100% mundane" and "definitely 100% supernatural."

I think our difference is one of narrative more than one of effect, really. For me, there's too much semantic debate in the "what is magic and what isn't magic and what does that IMPLY?!" rabbit-hole. To me it resembles an argument about genre, and genre is fundamentally vibes-based and fuzzy at the edges (and endlessly debated on the internet, so here we are!).

The proposed design tests the appetite for explicit magic by turning the magic from something "fighters can do with training" to something that fighters get via equipment that they exclusively can use (and are assured of getting). Turning the narrative to something with a bit more D&D historical cred and which raises fewer worldbuilding questions. We all grok magic items, and even exclusive magic items (holy avengers and whatnot) and even magic items of colossal narrative power.

Are we OK with fighters doing magical things if we justify it in a way that's a little more...bald? A little less worried about semantics, and just says, yeah, it's magic (magic items!).

I'm a little surprised at the harmony that proposal has managed to create, but excited by it!

There are hiccups...
This is another one of those "no good answer" questions. Assuming we want a fighter to be empowered by his gear to match a caster of equal level, getting them that item is as decisive. Does he just get it for leveling up? That's metagamey. Does he make his own? That's magical. Does the DM have to include it in the hoard? Then the player is slave to the whims of the DM.* You're never going to find a workable solution that doesn't alienate some part of the player base.
...but I don't think any of this is insurmountable.

When D&D moved from "wizards find and research spells" to "wizards get spells when they gain levels," the justification was just...study. Off-screen downtime. For clerics, it's even easier, since the spells are deemed to be more like "gifts" from the divine. Wisdom is just the capacity to use these gifts; level is just what the deities use to help "prove" you can be trusted with those gifts.

This is all pretty metagamey, but the game more or less accepted it.

For D&D to move from "fighters find magic gear" to "fighters get magic gear when they gain levels," the justification can be just as simple. "I was forging this in my down-time." Or, "I was grabbing magical resources from all of the magical places we've visited - wood from they Feywild and stone from that cave warped by the aberration cult." Or, "While Jozan was busy praying, I was studying this blade, and I think I've made it +1!"

Rogues can be similar. "I was honing this blade in my down-time." Or, "Guess what I nicked from that dragon's hoard?" or, "Guess I'm the favorite of the god of luck, 'cuz look what I made?"

I imagine we can do even better if we workshop it a bit, but I suspect the idea's got legs enough.

I suppose, at the end of the day, to bring fighters up, the magic items you give have to be things that allow for out of combat effects. It's not really an issue in combat - and that's largely why older versions of D&D got away with it - no one had any real abilities out of combat. Not really. The casters just didn't get enough spells, and, if you go to really old D&D, the spells just didn't exist. I mean, a Basic/Expert MU got, what, six, eight spells per level? I don't mean spell slots. I mean that there were actually only six or eight actual spells per level. So it wasn't like the MU was rewriting the game very often.

Putting magical gear into the hands of class features lets us diversify it in effect as much as we need to in order to feel like we're "sufficient." As much as I roll my eyes at the fad of "use the Warlock class design for everything!", you could see the shape of it there. Always-on abilities for things with passive effects; spend a limited resource on more powerful things that comes back on a short rest; you can take different paths as a melee or ranged character....

But, since 5e allows for a pretty broad spell list (much truncated from, say 3e, but, still pretty broad and gettin broader every year), we'd need to give fighters/rogues abilities that are just as broad. Mjollnir lets Thor fly, after all. That sort of thing. The problem, as you say, comes with limiting who can take the items. Because if the items are free to use for everyone, well, why would I give it to the fighter and not another character?

We can just lock it to class, just like spells are. Martial characters know their gear and rely on it in a way that spellcasters simply do not understand. Testing out a shape, what if we had something like...

Legendary Gear
At 3rd level, you begin to discover storied items with grand legacies who recognize you as a potential hero of destiny. Legendary gear is magical, and how you have discovered it is up to you - perhaps you found the item on one of your recent adventures, or maybe a mundane piece of equipment you have was transformed into legendary gear by a blessing or by being suddenly inhabited by a spirit. Legendary gear that you have only works for you. In anyone else's hands, the legendary gear is simply a mundane piece of equipment.

When this feature gives you a piece of legendary gear, you can select it from your class's list of legendary gear. If you are multiclassed, you can access additional lists. Each piece of legendary gear describes how it works.

A fighter's weapon might look like...
FLAME TONGUE
3rd-level fighter longsword

A warlike spirit of fire dwells in this longsword, which is eager to burn the world around it. You are able to keep it tamed and direct its fury. This magical longsword has a +1 to attack and damage rolls. When you use your Action Surge feature while wielding this longsword, it becomes engulfed in flames, and deals an extra 1d4 fire damage on a hit. The sword remains engulfed for 1 minute, or until you deactivate it (requiring no action from you).

If a paladin picks up this sword, the magic just...doesn't work. Why not? Well, they're not a Fighter who has selected this. The Paladin couldn't cast a spell the party Cleric had on their list, either. The paladin's skill with longswords isn't like the fighter's - the fighter understands this weapon and how to coax the fire from it in a way the paladin simply cannot. The iconic flaming effect relies on spending Action Surge uses, which I don't think everything should do, but gives us a way to limit per-day use that also reinforces the link to the class.

A rogue's bit of kit might look like this....

Armor of Shadows
3rd-level rogue studded leather armor
Prerequisite: Proficiency in Stealth

Armor once worn by the famous half-orc assassin Vrukush, who passed it onto his young halfling apprentice before it was lost to history. Now, you have found it.

This armor seems to grab at the darkness around you and helps you to hide in it. You can activate the magic in this armor to cast the darkness spell. You are able to see through the darkness you create with this armor. The spell cannot be used again in this way until you complete a long rest.

If the party druid equips this armor, it's just a normal suit of studded leather armor. A rogue, though...they know leather. They trust it with their lives. The magic responds to that intimacy and trust in a way that the druid can never really duplicate. Even if the Druid was proficient in Stealth, they couldn't coax the same magic from this armor. And a Fighter? Maybe an Archer-type who would employ light armor? They still aren't as deeply connected to the powers of this. Heck, they don't even know the name of the famous assassin!

Making the powers explicitly magical (rather than debatably magical) means we can get away with a lot in terms of out-of-character moments with a little bit of "any good reason."
 
Last edited:

Having a low grade fireball was apparently too much for non casters.

Is ranged area damage something that Fighters struggle with that needs to be addressed? I thought Fighters were pretty OK when it came to combat performance relative to mages, right?

Cuz the thing I'm hearing is that the martial/caster divide is more about the high-level wahoo stuff that casters can do while Fighters are stuck being merely damage engines. Which problem actually needs solving?
 

Is ranged area damage something that Fighters struggle with that needs to be addressed? I thought Fighters were pretty OK when it came to combat performance relative to mages, right?

Cuz the thing I'm hearing is that the martial/caster divide is more about the high-level wahoo stuff that casters can do while Fighters are stuck being merely damage engines. Which problem actually needs solving?
My experience of 5e fighter archers is they are plenty combat viable even though they are not area damage.
 

Are we OK with fighters doing magical things if we justify it in a way that's a little more...bald? A little less worried about semantics, and just says, yeah, it's magic (magic items!).

Jimmy Fallon Yes GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
 

Are we OK with fighters doing magical things if we justify it in a way that's a little more...bald? A little less worried about semantics, and just says, yeah, it's magic (magic items!).
For my part? No. Absolutely not.

As soon as you call it "magic" you've killed it dead. Permanently.

I think our difference is one of narrative more than one of effect, really.
It's both.

The narrative is a problem, because if it's magic, then it cannot be rooted in the mundane. It must, by definition, be rooted in something anti-mundane. If no one can grow from mundane soil into fantastical heights, we have lost a critically important story-element. The everyman who heroically pushes past limits is now gone. That's a problem, on a purely narrative axis.

The mechanics are also a problem. As soon as you call it "magic", it's affected by an antimagic field. It's theoretically vulnerable to counterspell. It can be resisted with magic resistance. It can be subject to a wide variety of effects that only apply to things D&D calls "magic" and not to things that D&D doesn't call "magic." Those are problems, all of which exist on a purely mechanical axis.

And then there's areas where they overlap. Given it's magic, does that mean it also involves weird chanting and hand-jives and such? That's gonna be a hard, HARD no from most martial fans, for both mechanical and thematic reasons. Given it's magic, why can't someone else learn the same stuff? Why can't a Bard copy it, for instance?

Calling it "magic" opens both thematic and narrative holes that are a serious stumbling block.

I accept, begrudgingly, calling it "supernatural." I would prefer "transmundane", or 3e's "extraordinary", but I will accept "supernatural" if that is absolutely required. I won't accept "magic." Supernaturalness is bigger than "magic", especially in the context of D&D.
 

If no one can grow from mundane soil into fantastical heights, we have lost a critically important story-element. The everyman who heroically pushes past limits is now gone. That's a problem, on a purely narrative axis.

See, I see it from the other end completely which I think is whats so amusing about our opposing view here.

If the everyman, fully mundane, cannot stand in front of the Demon Lord, and spit at its feet and WIN not because of some internal wellspring of magic supernatural power, but because he's just a man sworn to performing his duty to his friends and party members?

Then we have lost the most important narrative trope, frankly, that exists.

His limits exist, he's just a man, but he does it anyway.
 

Is ranged area damage something that Fighters struggle with that needs to be addressed? I thought Fighters were pretty OK when it came to combat performance relative to mages, right?

Cuz the thing I'm hearing is that the martial/caster divide is more about the high-level wahoo stuff that casters can do while Fighters are stuck being merely damage engines. Which problem actually needs solving?
It's a mix of both things.

At the lower-power end, especially if casters have even the slightest bit of influence over how often the party long-rests (which, IME, they have FAR more than "the slightest bit"!), spellcasters can spend just a few spells to generally keep pace with martials, or at least stay quite close (e..g within 80% of the Fighter's damage output) while still having rituals, cantrips, and (over time) more and more slots to play with for anything else they want to do. Meaning, the caster is functionally trading a 20% damage loss, for an ABSOLUTELY GINORMOUS gain in every other aspect of play. As a result, it would be highly beneficial to give Fighters et al. some tools that allow them to really, truly "rule the roost" when it comes to combat, just straight-up leaving spellcasters in the dust for damage output in many typical scenarios. If the spellcasters work really really hard and happen to luck out on great positioning (e.g. 6+ enemies and no allies within fireball range), that's fine, I'm wanting typical-average performance comparisons here, e.g. you use your AoE spells on 2-3 targets at minimum and at least one of those targets (on average) fails its save.

At the higher end, spellcasters ZOOM off to the moon--almost literally--while leaving the Fighter et al. colleagues behind in...basically every single area of the game that isn't "make a thing die." And even then, spellcasters have tools that can instantly disintegrate enemies, that can do a hundred damage or more in a single round, various other things. At that high end, yes, it would be a major improvement to provide the Fighter with an expansion to its utility in addition to its potential for bloody violence. I emphatically would not and do not expect a 1:1 answer for every possible utility spell, that would be stupid. But if Wizards are getting bloody wish at 17th level, yeah, I kinda think Fighters getting...uh...+1d10 to a skill roll a few times per short rest...at the cost of their self-healing...has maybe kinda-sorta possibly fallen just a smidge behind being able to literally will reality into a different shape.
 

See, I see it from the other end completely which I think is whats so amusing about our opposing view here.

If the everyman, fully mundane, cannot stand in front of the Demon Lord, and spit at its feet and WIN not because of some internal wellspring of magic supernatural power, but because he's just a man sworn to performing his duty to his friends and party members?

Then we have lost the most important narrative trope, frankly, that exists.

His limits exist, he's just a man, but he does it anyway.
Yes.

That last thing is exactly what I want. His limits exist--and then he flips them the bird and does it anyway. Those limits do not stand in the face of THAT MUCH grit and determination and gonad gumption.

I don't understand why you demand that this "I have limits, and then I flip them the bird and do what I need to do anyway" thing needs to be called "magic." Because it isn't. It's ridiculously superlative skill saying "F#$K your 'rules', I do what I must to protect my friends and my world", spitting in the face of beyond-impossible odds and defeating them anyway.

So like...it's really deeply confusing to hear you say "His limits exist, he's just a man, but he does it anyway."...and then say "All those things you talk about are magic."

Like, you're literally using words I would use to describe my own position, to describe yours. How is this a thing? How can his limits exist, and then he does something that those limits DO NOT PERMIT anyway?

Because someone held to the kinds of limits people keep designing into D&D--limits FAR below even Olympic athletes, let alone anything truly fantastical--do not allow what you just described. They simply, flatly don't. The "guy at the gym" limit on Fighter abilities means that that Demon Lord stomps that Fighter flat and then moves on with her day.
 

His limits exist--and then he flips them the bird and does it anyway.

I think you misunderstand me. If he has supernatural power, then...no actually he doesnt have limits.

If hes just a man, but with gear, he has limits. He, him, the actual man.

With supernatural power? Hes no different from any other class, just a different "totally not magic" source of power.
 

Remove ads

Top