D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[Micah Sweet]

I disagree with that notion. The PHB is absolutely a world-building tool for the Worlds of D&D. The PHB puts plenty of world assertions in the game: magic comes from a variety of sources from Oath to Book to Pact. Elves come in at least three lineages. Psionics is an ability at least four classes can use. The outer planes are a thing. Plenty of stuff like that. The PHB isn't a toolkit where I can build Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter out of it. You can flavor it however you like, but it's still designed with D&Disms in mind.

And that's where part of this argument breaks down. We no longer assume that D&D magic is supposed to represent every magic system ever. It's doesn't try to replicate Jon Constantine, Gandalf, Doctor Strange and Hogwarts under the same system. D&D magic is D&D magic. But martials have to encompass everyone from John McClain to Conan to Batman to Hercules.

I say let the martials get a story and then get a source of power. Make them supernatural like every other class in the game and give them tools that are appropriate. Yes, you lose the opportunity to play Boromir, but you already lost the ability to play Gandalf long ago. Go play One Ring 5e if you want grounded martials and magic. Let fighters be super soldiers, heroic bloodlines, the heir of giants, the children of Gods, etc. I don't want John McClain anymore if the cost is the fighter never getting to be special.

You can still play Boromir at lower levels. 3rd Age Middle-Earth 99% of the time operates at that level anyway. If you want to spend more time at those levels, use XP and stretch things out.

 

[Remathilis]

You can still play Boromir at lower levels. 3rd Age Middle-Earth 99% of the time operates at that level anyway. If you want to spend more time at those levels, use XP and stretch things out.

Sure. You can play Boromir at the Fellowship as 1st to 4th Level fighters and Gandalf as a 5th level caster (you can decide which). But for people so progress beyond tier one, where magic gets powerful and supernatural characters gain abilities, I don't want the fighter shackled to Boromir anymore. No more than I would want the wizard shackled to Gandalf.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure. You can play Boromir at the Fellowship as 1st to 4th Level fighters and Gandalf as a 5th level caster (you can decide which). But for people so progress beyond tier one, where magic gets powerful and supernatural characters gain abilities, I don't want the fighter shackled to Boromir anymore. No more than I would want the wizard shackled to Gandalf.

Yeah, I think that's what I said.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I disagree with that notion. The PHB is absolutely a world-building tool for the Worlds of D&D. The PHB puts plenty of world assertions in the game: magic comes from a variety of sources from Oath to Book to Pact. Elves come in at least three lineages. Psionics is an ability at least four classes can use. The outer planes are a thing. Plenty of stuff like that. The PHB isn't a toolkit where I can build Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter out of it. You can flavor it however you like, but it's still designed with D&Disms in mind.

And that's where part of this argument breaks down. We no longer assume that D&D magic is supposed to represent every magic system ever. It's doesn't try to replicate Jon Constantine, Gandalf, Doctor Strange and Hogwarts under the same system. D&D magic is D&D magic. But martials have to encompass everyone from John McClain to Conan to Batman to Hercules.

I say let the martials get a story and then get a source of power. Make them supernatural like every other class in the game and give them tools that are appropriate. Yes, you lose the opportunity to play Boromir, but you already lost the ability to play Gandalf long ago. Go play One Ring 5e if you want grounded martials and magic. Let fighters be super soldiers, heroic bloodlines, the heir of giants, the children of Gods, etc. I don't want John McClain anymore if the cost is the fighter never getting to be special.

this post was going so well for me and then that final paragraph came along, i don't know why martials can't just be the farmer's kid who came from the long line of ordinary folk and still be extraordinary and influential without the crutch of the supernatural coming along to justify how they manage at higher levels.

 

[Micah Sweet]

this post was going so well for me and then that final paragraph came along, i don't know why martials can't just be the farmer's kid who came from the long line of ordinary folk and still be extraordinary and influential without the crutch of the supernatural coming along to justify how they manage at higher levels.

IMO it's because operating at those levels without supernatural aid literally makes no sense to me.

 

[Remathilis]

this post was going so well for me and then that final paragraph came along, i don't know why martials can't just be the farmer's kid who came from the long line of ordinary folk and still be extraordinary and influential without the crutch of the supernatural coming along to justify how they manage at higher levels.

Because that's what D&D does. A barbarian isn't someone with a temper, he's someone channelling primal power. The bard isn't just a pretty singer, she's someone who can manipulate the Words of Creation. A cleric isn't just a a Parrish priest, they are the chosen of a god. D&D isn't for community folk, they are for extraordinary people with extraordinary origins.

Their is a word for ordinary people: NPC. PCs with classes should be special from the jump.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because that's what D&D does. A barbarian isn't someone with a temper, he's someone channelling primal power. The bard isn't just a pretty singer, she's someone who can manipulate the Words of Creation. A cleric isn't just a a Parrish priest, they are the chosen of a god. D&D isn't for community folk, they are for extraordinary people with extraordinary origins.

Their is a word for ordinary people: NPC. PCs with classes should be special from the jump.

I don't think PCs should be special out of the gate, but by the "supernatural event horizon" they kind of have to be to some extent, just like any analogous NPCs would be IMO.

 

[Remathilis]

I don't think PCs should be special out of the gate, but by the "supernatural event horizon" they kind of have to be to some extent, just like any analogous NPCs would be IMO.

Barbarians get rage at level 1. Monks get focus at level 2. All spellcasters get spells at level 1. Fighters and rogues don't need to wait until 10th level to do cool things. Not unless you want to start dialing back a lot of other classes as well. (Maybe move rage back to 5th, paladin smites to 10th, etc?)

 

[CreamCloud0]

Because that's what D&D does. A barbarian isn't someone with a temper, he's someone channelling primal power. The bard isn't just a pretty singer, she's someone who can manipulate the Words of Creation. A cleric isn't just a a Parrish priest, they are the chosen of a god. D&D isn't for community folk, they are for extraordinary people with extraordinary origins.

Their is a word for ordinary people: NPC. PCs with classes should be special from the jump.

Barbarians get rage at level 1. Monks get focus at level 2. All spellcasters get spells at level 1. Fighters and rogues don't need to wait until 10th level to do cool things. Not unless you want to start dialing back a lot of other classes as well. (Maybe move rage back to 5th, paladin smites to 10th, etc?)

i don't get what about the premise of rage or focus themselves actually requires them to be any sort of supernatural effect, sure there might be subclasses which come with supernatural effects but the abilities themselves not so much, battle frenzy is a thing, self discipline is a thing, they don't need the supernatural juice to make them work,

and i agree fighters and rogues shouldn't have to wait until level 10 to do cool things, what i object to is them needing to be some sort of chosen one or demi-god or super soldier to do those things, PCs can be special, and what's special about a fighter can be the amount of training they dedicated themselves to and having the willpower to push past where most lesser folk would've simply given up.

there are plenty of people out there who want to play entirely non-supernatural characters who still go toe-to-toe with gods and abominations, making every character who wants to play at high level dependent on magic to be capable is denying a swathe of people who want to play one of the most classic stories out there, i deny that the 'supernatural event horizon' as micah calls it, has to exist.

 

[Remathilis]

i don't get what about the premise of rage or focus themselves actually requires them to be any sort of supernatural effect, sure there might be subclasses which come with supernatural effects but the abilities themselves not so much, battle frenzy is a thing, self discipline is a thing, they don't need the supernatural juice to make them work,

and i agree fighters and rogues shouldn't have to wait until level 10 to do cool things, what i object to is them needing to be some sort of chosen one or demi-god or super soldier to do those things, PCs can be special, and what's special about a fighter can be the amount of training they dedicated themselves to and having the willpower to push past where most lesser folk would've simply given up.

there are plenty of people out there who want to play entirely non-supernatural characters who still go toe-to-toe with gods and abominations, making every character who wants to play at high level dependent on magic to be capable is denying a swathe of people who want to play one of the most classic stories out there, i deny that the 'supernatural event horizon' as micah calls it, has to exist.

Barbarian was literally primal powered in 4e. The 2024 PHB literally says "Barbarians are mighty warriors who are powered by primal forces of the multiverse that manifest as a Rage." You can ignore it if you want, but barbarians are supernatural from level 1.

Normal people don't go toe to toe with Gods. Sorry. Normal people are Commoners and guards. Either explain why your extraordinary or play an NPC.