D&D (2024) Avenger of The Silver Flame build

[Zardnaar]

Most of the build is technically possible. Not the bit about combining a melee cantrip with TWF, as has been pointed out, but the rest is a legal build. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Like, I love off-brand and niche builds. But that's why I love unusual subclasses or creative feature combinations that enable those off-brand type characters. Because trying to do it without the features to back it up is just deliberately crippling yourself. And that's less cool in a group activity like D&D than it is in a single player RPG.

If you built it right the only downgrade is daggers vs Shortsword +scimitar or dagger.

Assuming you focus on true strike or cantrips

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Okay so o have a character concept that is a changeling scribe and clergy of the Silver Flame.

They’re also a divine assassin of sorts, blessed by the Flame to kill supernatural evils. Right now the mechanical concept is a Paladin/Warlock, no armor, dual wielding daggers because they’re easy to hide, but also very good with a longbow, combining Paladin weapon mastery and fighting style and smite with Blade Warlock goodies and green flame blade and true strike. They do the offhand attack as part of the action, and they can replace an attack with GFB or TS. On a dual wielder Divine Favor becomes very good, so she will be using that a lot, and only using smite when she crits.

Warlock - Armor of Shadows, Pact of the Blade, Pact of The Tome, Archfey patron with heavy reflavoring. (Celestial is too much about healing tbh and Archfey gives a lot of mobility and utility)

Paladin - Oath of Vengeance. Obviously.

So, any thoughts on this build? Anyone ever play a silver flame ‘assassin’? If so, what did it look like?

If I was doing a more conventional Silver Flame Paladin/Warlock, I'd probably go for Devotion or Watchers Paladin, and Celestial Warlock. The level 6 Celestial Warlock ability synergises very well with Paladin Smites, Divine Favour, and True Strike.

Vengeance Paladin might work better for a dedicated killer, but would probably be a bit too "Pure Flame" extremist for me to be happy playing.

If I was doing an "assassin" type build, I'd probably go for more of a Rogue/Ranger mix, with more emphasis on the actual hunting down and locating the target, then infiltrating and killing them that than spellcasting.

Mechanically, what is the out-of-combat role and capabilities of your suggested character? I'm assuming decent Charisma and Dexterity? So you should be fine as a party Face?
In combat, is the plan to cast Divine favour, Oath of Enmity then just stab as many times as possible? I am assuming you have Two weapon Fighting style and be picking up Dual Wielder Feat?

One weapon will need to be a Dagger or similar with Nick, but I'd suggest a different one for your other hand. Since it is a Pact weapon, the concealability isn't really an issue. Maybe a shortsword or Handaxe?
I'm guessing that you were intending to put a weapon Mastery into Longbow. I'd suggest that while carrying and using a longbow is a good idea and fits well, Longbow Mastery isn't amazing. You might want to put that other mastery into your off-hand weapon instead, possibly something with Vex, for when your oath isn't available.
On the plus side, while as others have pointed out, you can't use a cantrip and get extra attacks through dual-wielding, you can use True strike with your bow.
Downsides are that in melee you will be making some attacks with Dex, and some with Charisma, so you will have to try to keep both high.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ok. Second attack can use Dex.

Every attack will be using Dex. No part of the build relies on attacking with charisma. I understand why you’d assume otherwise, I should have specified this is a Dex build.

Per the free rules...

Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.

Yeah I saw that after I posted. Not sure what version of the character during the building process had the ability to replace an attack with a cantrip or if I just got mixed up while building them at the same time as messing with my rogue/wizard. Oh well, doesn’t really matter since using an attack cantrip is a very small part of the build. TWF with divine favor and smite and hunter’s mark (vengeance paladin), all of which is radiant, is the meat.

Anyway thanks for the catch. I could have sworn I had something in a build while updating characters that allowed the attack swap without necessarily having extra track yet, but I was on the travel channel, as it were.

Alright, let me rephrase. The build you proposed is making a great many choices for flavor at the direct expense of power.

False.

Going double daggers instead of having a Vex main hand weapon. Going with no armor for aesthetic reasons, when the usual goal of a Paladin/Warlock multiclass is to take Heavy armor and focus on Cha. And more.

The “usual goal” is irrelevant, a Dex Paladin already works very well even without at-will mage armor. The Fey patron is quite hard to pin down, on top of that.
Weapon masteries aren’t that important, beyond being able to dual wield effectively. They’re nice, that’s it. This character has Dagger and Longbow, allowing effective long range attacks without investing invocations into making EB broken.
Admittedly, Slow isn’t the best mastery property, but it is extremely useful when it comes up. The build also has access to Vow of Emnity, and will eventually have a familiar to give her advantage on attacks with the help action. Vex just isn’t needed. Hiding her weapons in plain sight is. Because the game is more than combat.

I’ve played Paladin/Warlocks before, and never gone heavy armor, they’ve all been Dex builds. They’ve all been very effective.

I’ve been playing D&D for almost thirty years, and 5e for a decade, when I post about a build idea or concept I absolutely don’t need lectures about how I should just do something completely different. Please stop threadcrapping and just move on if you have nothing other than threadcrapping to say here.

While I'm all for working within the constraints of a character concept, I never endorse characters that cripple their own effectiveness in the name of flavor. Better to either build around what the rules offer, or to negotiate a homebrew that enables the specific character fantasy desired. Coming to the table with a significantly understrength character is just a recipe for frustration and finger pointing.

Which isn’t the case here, so this admonishment isn’t even relevant, beyond the fact that it’s needless lecturing that no one asked for.

Or at least, that's my philosophy. You do you.

Most of the build is technically possible. Not the bit about combining a melee cantrip with TWF, as has been pointed out, but the rest is a legal build. That doesn't make it a good idea.

The TWF with a cantrip works fine, just not in this build, as noted above. My Rogue/Bladesinger switched to a scimitar from a rapier for this reason.

Like, I love off-brand and niche builds. But that's why I love unusual subclasses or creative feature combinations that enable those off-brand type characters. Because trying to do it without the features to back it up is just deliberately crippling yourself. And that's less cool in a group activity like D&D than it is in a single player RPG.

Nope, this character literally isn’t losing anything. It’s a versatile characters that murders monsters, has a ton of utility in and out of combat, and will be very fun to play.

 

[mellored]

Every attack will be using Dex. No part of the build relies on attacking with charisma. I understand why you’d assume otherwise, I should have specified this is a Dex build.

Guess I don't see what pact of the blade is doing for you then.
Just for alternative damage types?

Yeah I saw that after I posted. Not sure what version of the character during the building process had the ability to replace an attack with a cantrip

Valor bard, Bladesinger, and Eldritch knight can.
But that's a few levels up.

TWF with divine favor and smite and hunter’s mark (vengeance paladin), all of which is radiant, is the meat.

Ok. Guess pact of the blade is for radiant damage then.
Thematic.

I'll also suggest Aasimar.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If I was doing a more conventional Silver Flame Paladin/Warlock, I'd probably go for Devotion or Watchers Paladin, and Celestial Warlock. The level 6 Celestial Warlock ability synergises very well with Paladin Smites, Divine Favour, and True Strike.

Yeah, if I was making a 4e style Avenger of the silver flame, celestial warlock would make sense, but obviously this isn’t that.

Vengeance Paladin might work better for a dedicated killer, but would probably be a bit too "Pure Flame" extremist for me to be happy playing.

Nah, Vengeance doesn’t need to be a zealot at all. It’s just a hunter of evil, and explicitly opposed to Pure Flame style bigotry/abuse of power. (Well, the 2024 oaths are too oversimplified but the original vengeance tenets are quite clear about only harming the actual evil.) not every militant silver flame paladin is a pure flame fanatic.

If I was doing an "assassin" type build, I'd probably go for more of a Rogue/Ranger mix, with more emphasis on the actual hunting down and locating the target, then infiltrating and killing them that than spellcasting.

A general assassin, sure. Lots of fun ways to build that.

Mechanically, what is the out-of-combat role and capabilities of your suggested character? I'm assuming decent Charisma and Dexterity? So you should be fine as a party Face?

Out of combat doesn’t work like that, tbh. Not in my experience. Out of combat you have some skills and a personality and you do some roleplay and problem solving.

As for capabilities, this character is flexible. Scribe background gets you Skilled, and the character is a scholar, a very good liar and sneak, and a decent athlete. But, she could easily have a different background, and different skills, and a whole different vibe.

In combat, is the plan to cast Divine favour, Oath of Enmity then just stab as many times as possible? I am assuming you have Two weapon Fighting style and be picking up Dual Wielder Feat?

Yes, basically, with the option to turn to the longbow when appropriate.

One weapon will need to be a Dagger or similar with Nick, but I'd suggest a different one for your other hand. Since it is a Pact weapon, the concealability isn't really an issue. Maybe a shortsword or Handaxe?

I did consider that, since she can just summon the weapon, but after a short time you have access to Shadowblade and my DM is fine with stuff like changing it to a radiant blade of silver fire, and the advantage when in darkness still makes sense when attacking with a bright light. Thematically it’s just wreathing one of their daggers in silver fire.

I'm guessing that you were intending to put a weapon Mastery into Longbow. I'd suggest that while carrying and using a longbow is a good idea and fits well, Longbow Mastery isn't amazing. You might want to put that other mastery into your off-hand weapon instead, possibly something with Vex, for when your oath isn't available.

The mastery point is fair. Slow really isn’t that great, and she has other ways to keep an enemy from escaping.

On the plus side, while as others have pointed out, you can't use a cantrip and get extra attacks through dual-wielding, you can use True strike with your bow.
Downsides are that in melee you will be making some attacks with Dex, and some with Charisma, so you will have to try to keep both high.

In melee she will just always attack with Dex, and tbh my DM will probably allow me to use Dex even when using true strike with the bow. If not, that’s fine since I want a high cha and dex anyway on such a build.

Overall the build has a vibe of a pursuit avenger from 4e, gaining the mobility and utility of an assassin through largely magical means instead of physically like a rogue or monk would.

Speaking of monk, if it weren’t for paladins being Cha based I’d love to look at a paladin/monk version of this. Too bad I strongly dislike the cleric class…and while Ranger/monk is a really fun combo I’ve enjoyed before it doesn’t fit the concept. Rogue/paladin obviously could fit fine, but man I have played that before I want something different.

Oh, and this way I eventually can take pact of the chain and reflavor the sphinx of wonder as a coatl.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Guess I don't see what pact of the blade is doing for you then.
Just for alternative damage types?

It’s honestly not that big a deal in the build until much later with follow up invocations, and even then…eh, might drop it and take something else.

Valor bard, Bladesinger, and Eldritch knight can.
But that's a few levels up.

I….i know. Like I said, I’m not sure which version of the character made me think I had that ability. Meaning, I looked at several options that did have it, before landing on this one.

Ok. Guess pact of the blade is for radiant damage then.
Thematic.

I'll also suggest Aasimar.

I considered Aasimar but settled on changeling instead simply because I liked the secrecy and it fit the visual I had that started the concept with. Visually she also could be a Drow, but eh another elf? Nah lol

 

[Zardnaar]

Can I request update on idea since it seems you've realized true strike isn't all that and you're using dexterity.

Also nite imif you cast true strike you don't get the choice of using dexterity.

Are you hellbent on certain classes? Your OP kinda indicated rogue/Warlock or paladin/Warlock.

Secrets of ancient ones can get you mage armor btw.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Can I request update on idea since it seems you've realized true strike isn't all that and you're using dexterity.

Also nite imif you cast true strike you don't get the choice of using dexterity.

Are you hellbent on certain classes? Your OP kinda indicated rogue/Warlock or paladin/Warlock.

Secrets of ancient ones can get you mage armor btw.

Shadow Armor gets you Mage Armor at-will.

I’m still considering replacing one of the classes with rogue or just adding rogue (one level at level one, and eventually 3-5 total rogue levels).

The build needs divine magic (or magic I can flavor that way easily), radiant damage, efficacy while using weapons that aren’t immediately recognizable as weapons (ie daggers, preferably dual wielding), and using supernatural abilities and magic to accomplish what a rogue/ranger would do largely by physical skill and prowess.

And of course, be made a using classes I actually like to play lol.

I’d love to make it as a monk, but I see no way to do it without a custom monk subclass or a houserule to use wisdom for the Paladin, or maybe a more divine Ranger subclass. And even with one of those, I’d need either great stat rolls or to ignore the multiclass stat requirements to do monk-paladin.

And honestly Paladin provides so much of what makes a good “agent of divine wrath against supernatural evil” that it’s hard to ignore.

Anyway, the current build is probably ditching GFB but keeping true strike (my dm will let me use Dex instead of cha for that so it’s a good magic longbow attack option). I’ll keep Pact of the Blade because making one weapon deal radiant damage is part of the basic concept and it’s an easy way to do that.

So Warlock, pact of the Blade, Armor of Shadows, and I’ll choose a utility invocation like pact of the tome or maybe lessons of the ancients, or part of the chain with a sphinx (flavored as a small coatl guy) familiar.

Paladin, TWF, dagger and possibly short sword mastery even though I intend to use Shadowblade a decent amount so a second melee mastery isn’t going to come up a ton. Might use Shortbow rather than longbow and grab mastery with that.

Spells: divine favor, wrathful smite, compelled duel, armor of Agythis, Shadowblade (homebrewed to radiant damage), and all the Vengeance Paladin and Archfey Warlock spells.

Skills: Stealth, Investigation, Religion, deception, insight, athletics, persuasion, and a musical instrument just because. (Skilled, changeling, warlock, paladin).

Feats: Not actually that impressed by dual wielder, but gonna grab skill expert for expertise in Stealth and to grab maybe sleight of hand, later I’ll grab speedy or skulker.

I’ll make another post later with how I’d do this using monk and ranger and maybe even explore monk-paladin in spite of the obstacles there.

 

[mellored]

I’d love to make it as a monk, but I see no way to do it

Shadowblade (homebrewed to radiant damage),

If your DM is allowing damage swaps..
Then how about a element-but-radiant monk?

Add Tavern Brawler so you use anything as a weapon, with scaling dice.
And you get your Dex/Wis skill

Maybe dip rogue 1 for expertise.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If your DM is allowing damage swaps..
Then how about a element-but-radiant monk?

Add Tavern Brawler so you use anything as a weapon, with scaling dice.
And you get your Dex/Wis skill

Maybe dip rogue 1 for expertise.

The issue I see with element monk is that even with damage swapped to radiant it feels…like I’m shooting hadokens? Doesn’t bother me for other builds, but this one…I’ll take another look at it but idk.

Okay having looked at it again I will say that it works as long as I don’t go too many levels into the class, since you don’t get a hadoken until level 6. And I guess an explosion of silver flame is thematic.

I would rather the attacks be with a weapon, but I can flavor the radiant strikes as daggers wreathed in silver flame.

The only thing missing is ways to investigate and detect supernatural evil, but…Ranger can probably do that, so a Ranger/Monk could work, or Rogue/Monk. I really hope they redo the Inquisitive Rogue for the new Eberron book.