On participation trophies

Competition is fun! But I don't think anyone is calling for the end of competition. But it's good to have a mix of opportunities for people and kids who want to participate in organized kinesthetic activities.

I have no issue there. I just think this idea that there shouldn't be any competition for kids is a bit of an issue. And obviously it should scale up (I don't expect a kids Judo match to be treated the same as one for 18 year olds or 40 year olds)

It's a little surprising to see so much argument for having all games be competitive on a forum dedicated to D&D, which is hardly a competitive game. Sure you are trying to overcome obstacles and "win" the scenario, but it's not like you're competing against other teams, and at the end of the day the DM is actually on your side.

I don't think anyone is saying this at all. They are just saying it is okay, even positive, for things that are competitive to remain competitive (see my example about Chess and Axis and Allies).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Competition is fun though. Kids enjoy competing to win. And measuring performance is helpful.
So there is a lot to unpack in these truisms. Competition is a reality, but it is not always fun or productive. In fact, it is often the opposite.

Similarly, measuring performance is also often counterproductive. Everything depends on context. As soon as you put a measurement in place, you create an expectation, and this can often inhibit creativity and innovation. It tends to restrict self-expression and, in education, often limits personal growth.

Exhibit A: Grades and Report Cards.

I am a teacher with decades of experience. I hate grades and report cards. I think they are a bane upon education. For me, the whole point of education is to help each person achieve their potential. But grades and report cards are about standardization. Specifically, standardization around a set of criteria that were mostly developed more than a century ago, and thus reflect a lot of outdated assumptions about what intelligence should be, and how it should be measured. The end result is an education system that makes a lot of brilliant people feel stupid and worthless because they don't fit a particular model of the mind. Instead of encouraging them to reach their potential, it frustrates and stunts them.

And the end result of that is a lot of people who live unhappy lives and contribute a lot less than they could have, or who succeed despite having been educated. The current education system, worldwide, is built around picking winners and losers based on invalid criteria. Measuring performance in particular tasks is only useful when the task is applicable to a specific outcome. If the specific outcome is "helping this person maximize their unique potential," then you aren't likely to get there by measuring their performance against a bunch of standardized tasks.

Exhibit B: Trophies (participation or otherwise)

What are you trying to achieve with trophies, awards, and medals? In psychological terms, they are a form of positive reinforcement, but note that in psychology "positive" does not mean "good," it just means that you are adding something in order to influence behaviour (for example, pain is also positive reinforcement). Typically, the positive reinforcement from a trophy is an ego boost, but what for? Mostly, they are there to reinforce a particular set of assumptions and values, and to give emotional pleasure to the recipient (secondarily) and to the recipient's family and fans (primarily). They stunt growth, and lead to limited ego development that revolves around external affirmation.

As I posted in the other thread, there is nothing sadder than an adult with a trophy wall.

Competition can be fun, in the right context, for certain types of people. It is not inherently fun - just ask the kid who gets picked on in dodge ball. Measuring performance can be helpful, but only when the measurement and expected outcome are in synch and useful, which typically they are not.
 


I used to organise wargaming tournaments. I soon discovered that after two rounds many players would simply drop out of a four round tournament because they had no chance to get in the top 3 and win a prize.

Next tournament, I announced there would be only two top prizes and one random prize among those who stayed and weren’t in the top two. Every one stayed till the end. I also gave a wooden golden cooking spoon to the worst player. He loved it. It became a tradition.

Participation prizes are important.
 

More of a joke here. I don't remember getting them. Gold star or whatever sure.

I didn't do sport though. You didn't have much choice generally espicially for swimming you're going in regardless once teachers are looking the other way.

Guys played netball girls played rugby. Mixed gender rugby was touch though. High school was boys only. Once again you're going in the water regardless your choice was if you wanted your clothes on or not. If they didn't like you there may be ice over the pool and it's been half drained. Only 1 guy in our class was a weak swimmer at least basic level.

Top 3 generally mattered.

I got pressured into swimming first year or two. Was reasonably good could generally get top 3 but I started saying no year 2 and I liked the water and going home wet was day off.

I didn't like being conscripted into house sports. Jocks didn't like me but worked on farm so they kinda left me alone so I didn't play rugby either.

Closest thing to participation trophy was your house got points per entrant so doing some sort of sport event did that. House with most points got a free lunch iirc.

Our house w9n one care I opted out so didn't go get free lunch (I was allowed just didnt). Didn't go well for guys who opted out but wanted free cream buns.
 


Have you run around kicking a ball for no reason with other people? It's actually a lot of fun. So is throwing a frisbee, going for a jog, playing catch, riding a bike... many people do these activities with others without any competition for fun.
Throwing a frisbee is fun, because it's not generally a competitive activity. Even so, I couldn't throw a frisbee for the same length of time I can play a game of basketball or baseball. Just kicking the ball around? No. I mean, I've done it, and it's boring as hell, so I stop after a few minutes. Same with shooting hoops. If we aren't playing a game, HORSE or some other game, I can't do it for more than a few minutes before I become bored with the activity.
 

It's a league for young children. Teaching them to be competitive to the point of sucker punching each other in the back of the head is toxic. Kids can participate in sports for the joy of participating and being involved. There are plenty of different levels of play - treating a rec league that costs $20 to sign up like La Liga is insane, IMO.

Of course, I can't compete in any contact sports because I got laid out in a rec league game of flag football. Some douchebag thought it would be funny to headshot me when I was going up for a catch. I don't remember the week afterwards. Apparently, by these standards, I shouldn't be allowed to participate in what was supposed to be a casual game.
First, I'm really sorry about what happened to you. I don't condone that sort of crap in any way, shape or form.

Second, I didn't suggest in my post that punching of any sort, or any unsportsmanlike conduct is okay. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't imply otherwise.

Third, as @Bedrockgames said upthread, it's really important to teach children how to lose graciously. If you don't, you are doing them a tremendous disservice, because they will become teens and adults who do not know how to lose graciously, and they will encounter winning and losing in the real world as adults.

Someone who does not know how to lose graciously is also more likely to be the kind of person who loses their temper when they lose and act in an unsportsmanlike manner. That can also get them fired or worse as adults.
 

I used to organise wargaming tournaments. I soon discovered that after two rounds many players would simply drop out of a four round tournament because they had no chance to get in the top 3 and win a prize.

Next tournament, I announced there would be only two top prizes and one random prize among those who stayed and weren’t in the top two. Every one stayed till the end. I also gave a wooden golden cooking spoon to the worst player. He loved it. It became a tradition.

Participation prizes are important.
Reminds me of when I was doing my military service, and there was an orienteering competition that everyone was supposed to take part in. People started at staggered intervals, and for some reason (possibly random chance), I was the second-to-last to start. I am not particularly fast, so I took my time, but I did manage to get all the control points. When I was done and returned to the regiment, they had already removed the goal and it was getting dark, so I returned to the barracks to find my platoon mates getting ready to go out looking for me.

A few days later, the platoon CO presented me with a Maglite as a consolation prize since I did complete the whole thing, and he figured I could use it if I needed to get around in the dark again.
 

So there is a lot to unpack in these truisms. Competition is a reality, but it is not always fun or productive. In fact, it is often the opposite.

Sure, not everyone is competitive and not everyone wants to participate in competitive sports. But competitive sports, I would say, are competitive for a reason (the competition is one of the things that makes them fun, just like you probably wouldn't play chess that didn't have win conditions or even checkers).

Similarly, measuring performance is also often counterproductive. Everything depends on context. As soon as you put a measurement in place, you create an expectation, and this can often inhibit creativity and innovation. It tends to restrict self-expression and, in education, often limits personal growth.

I would agree in part here. These measurements are not everything, but I do find them helpful. Especially in the context of sports where there are specific conditions of victory both sides are aiming for.


Exhibit A: Grades and Report Cards.

I am a teacher with decades of experience. I hate grades and report cards. I think they are a bane upon education. For me, the whole point of education is to help each person achieve their potential. But grades and report cards are about standardization. Specifically, standardization around a set of criteria that were mostly developed more than a century ago, and thus reflect a lot of outdated assumptions about what intelligence should be, and how it should be measured. The end result is an education system that makes a lot of brilliant people feel stupid and worthless because they don't fit a particular model of the mind. Instead of encouraging them to reach their potential, it frustrates and stunts them.

I do think education is a completely different topic than this. I am talking about it in the context of sports. Clearly I am not a teacher so I don't know much about the other side of grading. Here, we are living in different countries so I imagine the challenges in our respective systems are very different. I will say, I had great difficulty as a student early on because I am dyslexic. I didn't properly read a book until high school. But once I started overcoming this issue, things like grades were a very important part of gauging my level of improvement and a very important motivator (especially when I went to college). I am not saying I know there perfect system here. But I feel like I thrived more in a system where grading existed (while I was in high school I was able to visit alternative schools that didn't have grades, and even spent a week attending one, and it just wasn't a good fit for my personality)

And the end result of that is a lot of people who live unhappy lives and contribute a lot less than they could have, or who succeed despite having been educated. The current education system, worldwide, is built around picking winners and losers based on invalid criteria. Measuring performance in particular tasks is only useful when the task is applicable to a specific outcome. If the specific outcome is "helping this person maximize their unique potential," then you aren't likely to get there by measuring their performance against a bunch of standardized tasks.

I certainly think there is a lot wrong with current education. And I think society is cruel to people who fall behind or who are perceived as (EDIT) not having all the 'right' qualifications. But I think that is a whole other topic. You and probably don't disagree much on broad points here, but we may disagree on some specifics. I live in Massachusetts and they just voted to eliminate standardized tests. I understand the arguments for why that was on the ballot but our schools are ahead nationally and I think getting rid of the required tests might be a mistake (of course time will tell, and I don't have kids so I don't think this is an issue where my opinion is as important as say my sisters who both do have kids).


Exhibit B: Trophies (participation or otherwise)

What are you trying to achieve with trophies, awards, and medals? In psychological terms, they are a form of positive reinforcement, but note that in psychology "positive" does not mean "good," it just means that you are adding something in order to influence behaviour (for example, pain is also positive reinforcement). Typically, the positive reinforcement from a trophy is an ego boost, but what for? Mostly, they are there to reinforce a particular set of assumptions and values, and to give emotional pleasure to the recipient (secondarily) and to the recipient's family and fans (primarily). They stunt growth, and lead to limited ego development that revolves around external affirmation.

They certainly can be an ego boost. It is nice to get a trophy. I wouldn't agree that they stunt growth. A trophy is something you earn for your performance in an event, that you worked hard for months to achieve: months of training, conditioning, etc. Obviously what it represents can vary from one sport to another. But for me I saw trophies as being a way to help commemorate something you achieved that particular day. And some trophies have more weight than others (a trophy from the nationals or olympics is probably going to mean more to some people than trophies from regional qualifiers).

But that trophy comes at the end of a physical performance in an event with clear rules. You aren't really there to get the trophy. You are there to perform in an event. Now to some people this may be meaningless. But to a kid who has put in countless hours of training to get good at something, and does well enough to win. I don't see any harm in giving them a trophy for that.


As I posted in the other thread, there is nothing sadder than an adult with a trophy wall.

Perhaps to you. And I think a lot of people have a stereotype in their head of people like Al Bundy or Johnny Lawrence. But trophies are like anything else you get in life. They are no sadder than hanging pictures on your wall of friends and family.

And I don't think most people have trophy walls, but people keep trophies and medals for all kinds of reasons. My grandfather was a boxer and he won the golden gloves more than once. Those got passed down through my family and we still have them. I am probably going to inherit them from my mother. These don't mean much outside of boxing fandom. But in the world of boxing, and particularly in Massachusetts, they have meaning. I still have a bunch of my TKD medals. For me they are mementos. I just keep them hanging on a keychain by my desk. They aren't on display but there so I have them. The value they bring me now, is when I look at something like my medal from the Yong Yin University event I went to, it reminds me of the people I was friends with and competed with at the time (it isn't really a team sport like soccer but your school goes there together as a team). And it reminds me of the time I spent training at the dojang I went to (and the master there and his wife). It isn't "oh my glory days". It is more appreciation that I got a chance to have those memories and I got a chance to test myself physically

Competition can be fun, in the right context, for certain types of people. It is not inherently fun - just ask the kid who gets picked on in dodge ball. Measuring performance can be helpful, but only when the measurement and expected outcome are in synch and useful, which typically they are not.

Yes, I started with an example of quitting soccer because the coach made me resentful and not have a fun time. So I am not saying make kids who don't want to compete. I am not saying parents should put kids in the field for their own glory. I am saying it can be fun and the process of learning to win and lose is important. I think there are life lessons kids learn from experiencing some competitive sports. And all we are really talking about here is keeping score. I mean you can keep score in a game where the point is to keep score and not make the kids into jerks about it. You can tell them, winning is fun but it isn't everything.

I would push back on the idea it isn't inherently fun. I think soccer isn't inherently fun for everyone. But most people eventually find something they are good at and probably enjoy being competitive about (even if that is something like Magic the Gathering)
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top