D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[EzekielRaiden]

I have yet to encounter a DM allowing more than 2 short rests per long rest, myself included. If you take that into account, the warlock is still weaker than the other two in 'fireballizing' his enemies...

Yeah, if you have unlimited short rests warlock is second best, after battle master in dealing damage.

Though if you are hard-limited to no more than 2 short rests, that means there's gonna be days where you get only one, but never three or more--so the average will necessarily be less than 2/LR.

Given the way the game was designed (expecting roughly 2 combats per rest of any kind, and 6-8 combats between long rests), this would almost surely bias things against short-rest or non-rest-based characters (e.g. Battle Master or any Monk for the former, Thief Rogue or Champion for the latter.)

 

[Ashrym]

I have yet to encounter a DM allowing more than 2 short rests per long rest, myself included. If you take that into account, the warlock is still weaker than the other two in 'fireballizing' his enemies...

Yeah, if you have unlimited short rests warlock is second best, after battle master in dealing damage.

Hi. Pleased to meet you. Now you've met one. ;-)

Unlimited short rests is still a very strong word. More than two short rests often fits the pacing in wilderness or urban adventures, however.

 

[Zardnaar]

Hi. Pleased to meet you. Now you've met one. ;-)

Unlimited short rests is still a very strong word. More than two short rests often fits the pacing in wilderness or urban adventures, however.

I don't ban them but QUOTE or 2 is fairly typical. One extra if cleric is around.

Also fake ones eg 9 hour long rest. Casy aid as warlock short rest then go adventuring.

 

[^Dagon^]

Though if you are hard-limited to no more than 2 short rests, that means there's gonna be days where you get only one, but never three or more--so the average will necessarily be less than 2/LR.

Given the way the game was designed (expecting roughly 2 combats per rest of any kind, and 6-8 combats between long rests), this would almost surely bias things against short-rest or non-rest-based characters (e.g. Battle Master or any Monk for the former, Thief Rogue or Champion for the latter.)

Maybe 1.9 then, situations where you can't short rest rarely come up. And I think the game itself was designed around two short rests. Maybe just one in heavy horror campaigns with minimal heroic elements.

I didn't count days where no more than 1 short rest is needed, obviously. Or even none.

 

[Ashrym]

I don't ban them but QUOTE or 2 is fairly typical. One extra if cleric is around.

Also fake ones eg 9 hour long rest. Casy aid as warlock short rest then go adventuring.

Yeah, the 9 hour long rest for using long term short rest abilities is definitely a thing. I pick up prayer of healing on bards often enough too for that faster extra short rest.

As a DM, I typically tell the players when they have the opportunity to rest as opposed to the players telling me they are taking a rest.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Maybe 1.9 then, situations where you can't short rest rarely come up. And I think the game itself was designed around two short rests. Maybe just one in heavy horror campaigns with minimal heroic elements.

It's not a matter of "can't" per se. Just "didn't". All that is required to bias things in favor of spellcasters is an imbalance of long rest to short rest and of long rest to total number of combat rounds.

Fighters only get their damage from making attack rolls, Champions doubly so. It really isn't hard to exceed that--by a country mile!--if the party long rests too often and short rests infrequently, even if it wasn't "needed".

I've crunched numbers on this more than once, though admittedly not with the 5.5e tweaks in most cases.

I didn't count days where no more than 1 short rest is needed, obviously. Or even none.

I mean, you really, really should count those days though.

Because on those days, the people with spell slots just got the biggest possible windfall. They have an amount of resources designed to be spread out across a major swathe of challenges. Instead, they are able to ruthlessly exploit those resources over--what, two, maybe three encounters?

Under that situation, yes, spellcasters will almost guaranteed massively exceed the damage output of martial characters. Even if they only use up (say) 2/3 of their slots. Blowing a third of your slots on a single encounter is a HUGE amount of damage--or, more likely, stuff that is way better than dealing damage. (We're just using damage as a metric because it's directly commensurate between the two.)

 

[tetrasodium]

I have yet to encounter a DM allowing more than 2 short rests per long rest, myself included. If you take that into account, the warlock is still weaker than the other two in 'fireballizing' his enemies...

Yeah, if you have unlimited short rests warlock is second best, after battle master in dealing damage.

That sounds a lot like some flavor of Oberoni fallacy. If not, can you quote a rule that puts this apparent house rule into place given the spell already mentioned by others to grant one? Even if for discussion we grant the idea that it's somehow impossible for any players ever to take more than two+1 from the spell short rests it's still twelve fifth level spell slots for that tier3 warlock mentioned earlier.

 

[James Gasik]

I guess it really comes down to this- how many short rests per game day is required to balance 6-8 encounters, if that's even an ideal we're supposed to strive for?*

*There's been a lot of discussion on this point, I don't want to crack open that can of great wyrms specifically.

About 18 months back, give or take, someone presented math saying 2 short rests per day was expected, so I put house rules into place disallowing more than 2 without a "plot coupon". Because having some classes on a short rest clock and others on a long rest clock was driving me batty. I was hearing that if I gave few too short rests, some classes just don't function, and if I gave too many, I'd be shafting the long rest casters.

So how about before we go on about how many people use or don't use house rules like this, we establish some ground rules for discussion, otherwise we're going to see another 17 pages of "fireball is weak (monsters too tough, ideal AoE patterns are hard" vs. "nuh-uh, fireball is too strong (breaks DMG guidelines/out-performs all other similar spells" as everyone cites their own anecdotal evidence?

By what metrics should we be judging fireball? Me personally, I feel the ideal time to cast it in game is at least 3 targets, no allies, no resistance/immunity. I might be able to burn a 4th level spell slot on it, but my 5th and up spell slots are way too useful to use on a few d6 of damage. I know that when the stars do align, I know I'm not going to kill anything I'm using it on (and, barring some weird edge cases like swarms or things with damage auras, anything I could kill with fireball has no chance of hurting me and I can just cantrip it to death unless i'm somehow pressured for time) because it can already fail to kill a CR 1, and I've seen CR 3's who could tank maximum damage from an 8d6 fireball no problem (Yuan-Ti Priest is just one example, 66 hp and advantage on the save).

OTOH, while nerfing monsters offense into the ground is great and all, fights don't usually stop until hp are depleted, and a good damage spell synergizes with what the non-casters are doing, which is almost overwhelmingly some flavor of physical damage. And there are caveats- Evocation Wizard being a huge one- nothing like being able to drop fireball right on top of the melee.

But what is a good damage spell anyways? How often does it need to be cast? Should it have a side of control? Be hard to resist? Be friendly to allies? Have an easily usable area? What type of damage should it deal? How much up front damage is worth casting? How many rounds of, say, Spirit Guardians, would you need to equal one casting of fireball?**
**I think it's 2. If I'm wrong about that, feel free to jump in and say as much.

Anyways, those are some of the questions I'd like to see addressed. I now return you to the ̶u̶n̶e̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶r̶g̶u̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ spirited debate in progress.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's not a matter of "can't" per se. Just "didn't". All that is required to bias things in favor of spellcasters is an imbalance of long rest to short rest and of long rest to total number of combat rounds.

Fighters only get their damage from making attack rolls, Champions doubly so. It really isn't hard to exceed that--by a country mile!--if the party long rests too often and short rests infrequently, even if it wasn't "needed".

I've crunched numbers on this more than once, though admittedly not with the 5.5e tweaks in most cases.


I mean, you really, really should count those days though.

Because on those days, the people with spell slots just got the biggest possible windfall. They have an amount of resources designed to be spread out across a major swathe of challenges. Instead, they are able to ruthlessly exploit those resources over--what, two, maybe three encounters?

Under that situation, yes, spellcasters will almost guaranteed massively exceed the damage output of martial characters. Even if they only use up (say) 2/3 of their slots. Blowing a third of your slots on a single encounter is a HUGE amount of damage--or, more likely, stuff that is way better than dealing damage. (We're just using damage as a metric because it's directly commensurate between the two.)

Numbers have been crunched and spellcasters can't do it at levels that matter.

Exception might be fireballs in ideal circumstances. That's not consistently though.

CME Un nerfed was another theoretical one at higher levels. Wizard with Scorching rays.

And that's vs martials with no magic items. By those levels they should have a very rare, 2 rares and maybe a legendary. Throw them in and yeah.

Spellcasters could theoretically stack +7
Or so onto spelll DC which would be worse than scorching ray spam. Would require a drunk DM.

Sorlock going nova on a boss and quickening Eldritch blast caught work but requires around 3 rounds to set up. 2 rounds with help.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The thing about fireball, and spells in general, is that unlike martials, which generally have to be built to do a specific thing well, if a situation is not optimal for casting fireball, you can cast something else instead. With a reasonable selection of spells, you can tailor your use of your slots to fit the situation and opponents.

I'm seeing a lot of use from up-cast Chromatic Orb, particularly from Sorcerors. Ricocheting around is reasonably reliable in rage mode and allows decent damage to multiple targets without risking friendly fire, particularly if you don't have steel wind strike.