D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[^Dagon^]

This.. the logical gamer in me says to "rest for resources" but the CHARACTER, the "hero, who must act" does not feel that the farmer's daughter will wait for nappytime. This actually has made for solid real and RP tension for me.

Aragorn knows that you can't: "give them a moment for pity's sake!"

Anyway, the high rest premium in my campaign certainly limits "casters outdamaging martials"

I love this way of building adventures and campaigns, it makes them much more alive. If you fight through half the fort, the other half will not wait for you to take a nap. These are cases where realism actually adds flavor and fun instead of reducing it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My point was that a non-spellcaster healer very nearly doesn't exist in 5e. You have the Healer feat and....that's pretty much literally it. It's not a matter of "bringing up the Warlord"--it's simply a matter of saying: If the party has a healer, that healer is a spellcaster, and thus spellcasters arguing the party should wait so they can take a long rest have MUCH more than just "the Wizard can cast more spells' as an argument, which is what was asserted above. Instead, spellcasters also have "your character has a lot less chance to die because we'll be able to heal", which is inherently more persuasive simply because it's about avoiding a very real and present danger, not about a nebulous notion of group benefit.

Ok. So the warlord was just: "if there was a martial healer that recovers resources on a long rest, there is also a martial that cries for long rests and so it is not only spellcasters?"

I guess, if you play the game where spellcasters don't conserve their resources and always go nova and always get the chance to long rest whenever they want, then spellcasters will always be ahead of martials.

If you play the game where encounters can happen even after spellcasters have gone nova, martials are not that bad off.

In my experience, martials will need a lot of healing. But in my experience, as @Zardnaar already said, the healing needed is greatly reduced if spellcasters controp the battlefield. And I add, that if spellcasters also sometimes mix it up in melee and take some hits, healing surges take you a bit further.

One problem I see is that many people think, that range is always better, because you stay out of melee. But our group noticed fast that if noone goes into melee, everyone can end up there. And if only a single person is the front line, that character eats up too many healing resources.

Is spreading the hurt the most optimized tactic? Probably not. But it is way more fun for us than going nova->rest->nova->rest. Which actually only results in an arms race between DM and players.

A DM that creates tension and uncertanity when combats can happen, and also uses varied enemies and tactics, that can't always be taken down by cookie cutter combos, will be able to balance spellcasters and martial easily.

That was one of the first lessons I learned in 5.14 and it works even better in 5.24.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Solid snarky dismissal. But you are presenting like your experience is gospel. I would say it is sufficient to say there are divergent experiences from your own. IME they have been consistent enough.

And you aren't pretending like your experience is gospel?

You're the one claiming I couldn't possibly have had the experiences I've had here.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

You haven't played 5.5 and this thread is flagged 5.5.

Yes. I have.

It isn't that different.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Is spreading the hurt the most optimized tactic? Probably not. But it is way more fun for us than going nova->rest->nova->rest. Which actually only results in an arms race between DM and players.

Forgive me for expecting a game's design to reward you for doing the things that are fun, rather than rewarding you for doing things that are boring and making things more difficult (often much more difficult, in my experience) when you do the things specifically designed to be the fun way to play.

Openly admitting that it's not fun to play the game the way its incentive structure is designed is, IMO, openly admitting that it's a deeply flawed design. No, it isn't the most flawed it could possibly be (it isn't FATAL, after all), nor is it the most flawed D&D has ever been. But it's still a pretty serious design fault to make something where the clear, observable incentive structure actually is "do a thing that is less sensible, less fun, and more tedious, while avoiding the things that were made to be more sensible, more fun, and more engaging".

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Forgive me for expecting a game's design to reward you for doing the things that are fun, rather than rewarding you for doing things that are boring and making things more difficult (often much more difficult, in my experience) when you do the things specifically designed to be the fun way to play.

One person's boring is the other person's interesting.
You seem to not like asymmetric design or resource management. I did nkt like 4e for doing away with that.

Openly admitting that it's not fun to play the game the way its incentive structure is designed is, IMO, openly admitting that it's a deeply flawed design.

Woooo. You seem to misunderstand me. I question your asserion what the intended design is.
Please show me the quote where a designer says nova rest repeat is the intent. Actually you might find the opposite.
But I don't have a problem forgiving you for mistaking 4e and 5e design.

No, it isn't the most flawed it could possibly be (it isn't FATAL, after all), nor is it the most flawed D&D has ever been. But it's still a pretty serious design fault to make something where the clear, observable incentive structure actually is "do a thing that is less sensible, less fun, and more tedious, while avoiding the things that were made to be more sensible, more fun, and more engaging".

You really lost me there.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok. So the warlord was just: "if there was a martial healer that recovers resources on a long rest, there is also a martial that cries for long rests and so it is not only spellcasters?

I guess, if you play the game where spellcasters don't conserve their resources and always go nova and always get the chance to long rest whenever they want, then spellcasters will always be ahead of martials.

If you play the game where encounters can happen even after spellcasters have gone nova, martials are not that bad off.

In my experience, martials will need a lot of healing. But in my experience, as @Zardnaar already said, the healing needed is greatly reduced if spellcasters controp the battlefield. And I add, that if spellcasters also sometimes mix it up in melee and take some hits, healing surges take you a bit further.

One problem I see is that many people think, that range is always better, because you stay out of melee. But our group noticed fast that if noone goes into melee, everyone can end up there. And if only a single person is the front line, that character eats up too many healing resources.

Is spreading the hurt the most optimized tactic? Probably not. But it is way more fun for us than going nova->rest->nova->rest. Which actually only results in an arms race between DM and players.

A DM that creates tension and uncertanity when combats can happen, and also uses varied enemies and tactics, that can't always be taken down by cookie cutter combos, will be able to balance spellcasters and martial easily.

That was one of the first lessons I learned in 5.14 and it works even better in 5.24.

Spreading tge pain is always better. Hit dice and mass healing effects like prayer of healing.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes. I have.

It isn't that different.

Well you miss a lot of things. Spell casters nails an opponent with a control spell. Usually doesn't kill them though or even do that much damage.

Generally you need to combo zones with force movement to even try. It's slow and requires a party enabling it.

Easier to farm out the Jto to martials. That can't even reliably bail a high level fighter and Wil struggle vs a Paladin for example.

Not that DM has classes as such.

 

[Horwath]

on this whole Short-Long rest debacle;

either make Short rests short again; 1-5 min long(possible with a limit on how much per long rest, 2x or 3x per Long rest are most popular) or just delete the Short rest mechanics completely.
Just tripple short rest resources and have them recharge at Long rest.
As for HDs; in this variant; when you take Dodge action you can use a HD(+con as normal) amount of healing
at 5th level, you can spend 2 HDs, at 11th level 3HDs, at 17th level 4HDs per Dodge action.

warlock could be too much, so just torn them into half-casters with an invocation or two extra to compensate.

 

[Zardnaar]

on this whole Short-Long rest debacle;

either make Short rests short again; 1-5 min long(possible with a limit on how much per long rest, 2x or 3x per Long rest are most popular) or just delete the Short rest mechanics completely.
Just tripple short rest resources and have them recharge at Long rest.
As for HDs; in this variant; when you take Dodge action you can use a HD(+con as normal) amount of healing
at 5th level, you can spend 2 HDs, at 11th level 3HDs, at 17th level 4HDs per Dodge action.

warlock could be too much, so just torn them into half-casters with an invocation or two extra to compensate.

5MW are mostly an internet myth imho.

Even without a strict tine limit tbe enemies gave tine to prepare of flee taking prime loot with them.

At level 7 my players rested in a dungeon. Without confronting the villain.

They ambushed the camp, dropped glyph of warding everywhere and moved the artifact the PCs found but didn't secure.

Game world doesn't remain static.

Last adventure was survive the night. Sundays game is clear a vampire nest in one night. The artifact from level 7 they get another shot level 9. If they fail that one the level 12 encounter they get at 10.

Sure 5MWD if you want to suffer the consequences if you meta game. No loot if NPCs flee if they're smart enough to realize they can't win.