D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[Horwath]

5MW are mostly an internet myth imho.

I'm not talking about 5MWD, but it can be related to that.

I am talking that in designing encounters and ability to take short rest or lack there or, the "short rest" classes are generally shafted big time in 5E

I played battlemaster once, never again. we had, on average half a short rest per day.
you are completely useless with that, with 3 you are great, with one or less, do not bother to play it. Same with monk or warlock.

 

[tetrasodium]

on this whole Short-Long rest debacle;

either make Short rests short again; 1-5 min long(possible with a limit on how much per long rest, 2x or 3x per Long rest are most popular) or just delete the Short rest mechanics completely.
Just tripple short rest resources and have them recharge at Long rest.
As for HDs; in this variant; when you take Dodge action you can use a HD(+con as normal) amount of healing
at 5th level, you can spend 2 HDs, at 11th level 3HDs, at 17th level 4HDs per Dodge action.

warlock could be too much, so just torn them into half-casters with an invocation or two extra to compensate.

Warlock (and Monk) would absolutely be even more of a problem without being converted back to fractional long rest based or taking a page from how spell slot gain progression rate keeps slowing down from mid/late tier2+. Without such a rework, that kind of recovery would be borked as hell by tier3.

I don't entirely disagree with the rest of that but think that 2e had a better method setup where an hour∆ of quiet uninterrupted prayer/study per level of a spell being prepared would be better, especially if it included the HP regen rates that came with higher§ con scores in 2e

∆ or maybe 10 min per level if not hour. I can't recall right now.
§ usually magic item boosted levels &; similar

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm not talking about 5MWD, but it can be related to that.

I am talking that in designing encounters and ability to take short rest or lack there or, the "short rest" classes are generally shafted big time in 5E

No, they are not. As long as long rest classes have to worry about being cast out.

I played battlemaster once, never again. we had, on average half a short rest per day.
you are completely useless with that, with 3 you are great, with one or less, do not bother to play it. Same with monk or warlock.

Yes, we have noticed the problem in the beginning. If a long rest caster does not have to fear another encounter, they can go nova. We noticed that starting at level 5 last time. So I will be weary when we are 5th level soon.
But our solution to that problem was simple: there was always the fear of not being able to get a long rest whenever you want. A random encounter at night once in a while.
Enemies reinforcing their position and so on.
And I notice that my current group is very aware of not taking a short rest just to get everything back but carry on as long as needed.

For us, managing the resources is what makes spellcasters fun. A battle master usually goes nova every fight. If spellcasters can go nova every fight, D&D 5.24 is maybe not the right game for you.

 

[Horwath]

No, they are not. As long as long rest classes have to worry about being cast out.

Yes, we have noticed the problem in the beginning. If a long rest caster does not have to fear another encounter, they can go nova. We noticed that starting at level 5 last time. So I will be weary when we are 5th level soon.
But our solution to that problem was simple: there was always the fear of not being able to get a long rest whenever you want. A random encounter at night once in a while.
Enemies reinforcing their position and so on.
And I notice that my current group is very aware of not taking a short rest just to get everything back but carry on as long as needed.

For us, managing the resources is what makes spellcasters fun. A battle master usually goes nova every fight. If spellcasters can go nova every fight, D&D 5.24 is maybe not the right game for you.

I'm saying that Long rest classes can pace themselves around Long rest that is needed by everyone in the end.
and short rest classes count on atleast 2 if not 3 resets of their abilities.

now, if Short rest is 1min long with a fixed per Long rest limit(2 or 3), their recharge rate can be more reliable.

hell, it can even be a "full round action", that is a huge cost in an encounter to take.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm saying that Long rest classes can pace themselves around Long rest that is needed by everyone in the end.

An need to.

and short rest classes count on atleast 2 if not 3 resets of their abilities.

Depends on the level. Until level 4, one short rest or none at all has worked well so far. Caster have only 6 slots of not too impactful spells. And if they are impactful, they are best followed by martials hacking on what is left or what is disabled.

now, if Short rest is 1min long with a fixed per Long rest limit(2 or 3), their recharge rate can be more reliable.

Then short rest is no short rest anymore... The 1 hour pacing is good for the game.
Maybe a few more 1min abilties to rest abilities would help though (Like the new warlock ability).

hell, it can even be a "full round action", that is a huge cost in an encounter to take.

Yes. I do like that. Tabaxi do have one ability lile that. Don't move for a round to reset.

So a short breather. Spend a healing surge as an action. Regain a few hp. Regain certain abilities. A bit like 4e second wind. Way more effective than 5min short rests.

 

[ECMO3]

Edit:
And to those claiming hit dice are enough, I have seen FAR more than enough combats to know that that is simply, utterly false.

Hit dice are not enough, but hit dice + healing potions are, and healing potions are regular adventuring gear.

In the 2024 rules healing potions are a bonus action and you can also give someone else a healing potion as a bonus action too. This means any PC can be an effective healer, using their bonus action and even do a pretty good imitation of the bonus action healing word yo-yo trick.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

And you aren't pretending like your experience is gospel?

You're the one claiming I couldn't possibly have had the experiences I've had here.

That is quite a leap, look back at my post, I didn't make any such claim. I just counterpointed your absolutist statement with my own experience.... So, no I did not present my own experience as an absolute. Then I just responded to your rhetoric... but, yes, it was good for me

 

[Ashrym]

Hit dice are not enough, but hit dice + healing potions are, and healing potions are regular adventuring gear.

In the 2024 rules healing potions are a bonus action and you can also give someone else a healing potion as a bonus action too. This means any PC can be an effective healer, using their bonus action and even do a pretty good imitation of the bonus action healing word yo-yo trick.

It's not just hit dice and healing potions. It's also class abilities, subclass abilities, and feats. We can't ignore those because there's a lot of options in there.

There's a load of healing outside of spells. That's why casters are using their spell slots on DoT's or status effects or buffs instead. Clerics aren't using all those slots on healing. They're casting Spirit Guardians. Saving low level slots for Healing Word is a scratch compared to a party of five a 5th level and their twenty five hit dice worth of healing they have.

The only problem with hit dice healing is it typically requires a short rest so it's better if someone takes an an ability like the Healer feat to unlock more casual access to that healing.

Getting back to the short rest paradigm: bards regain inspiration, clerics regain channel divinity, and druids regain wildshape. Short rests also promote the use of these iconic abilities to play with the rest of the group. Warlocks regain pact slots. Wizards regain spell slots on one short rest and can swap out a spell on short rests. All these classes can also use hit dice for healing.

 

[Horwath]

Hit dice are not enough, but hit dice + healing potions are, and healing potions are regular adventuring gear.

In the 2024 rules healing potions are a bonus action and you can also give someone else a healing potion as a bonus action too. This means any PC can be an effective healer, using their bonus action and even do a pretty good imitation of the bonus action healing word yo-yo trick.

we use that administrating potion to another character is an Action, it's simply more work and coordination to complete.
also, depending on level of the potion(1-4), a character can spend 1-4 HDs with the potion.
same with healing spells, get healed by 2nd level Cure spell, you can spend 0-2 of your HDs for additional healing.

we also added cheap healing salves(5GP) that as an Action gives you possibility to use one HD worth of healing, and if used during Short rest, maximizes HD healing

 

[Ashrym]

we use that administrating potion to another character is an Action, it's simply more work and coordination to complete.
also, depending on level of the potion(1-4), a character can spend 1-4 HDs with the potion.
same with healing spells, get healed by 2nd level Cure spell, you can spend 0-2 of your HDs for additional healing.

we also added cheap healing salves(5GP) that as an Action gives you possibility to use one HD worth of healing, and if used during Short rest, maximizes HD healing

Maybe, but what you use and what the rules use are different.

Anyone can administer a healing potion with a bonus action, and anyone can learn to brew healing potions. They take all of a day to craft so they can be stockpiled during downtime.

My current rogue (thief) is a wannabe bard who has Musician and Chef feats, and will be adding Inspiring Leader. I am a bit behind in his DEX but it's not very detrimental to be a bit behind. If I ever get to 19th level I will be combining Reliable Talent with Boon of Skill. He has the proficiencies to craft potions, wonderous items, and rings. Healing potions are easy within downtime constraints. Rings not so much but that's true for anyone.

It doesn't take casters to do these things, and it doesn't take house rules to do things already within the core books. The house rules might be better in your game but those aren't the default everyone else is going to be using. ;-)

I could do this with a fighter too, but lose the rogue skill benefits. Taking Healer at first level and Chef at fourth level, and a proficiency to brew healing potions (or just buy potions) covers a good amount of healing. In a party of four that takes two short rests Chef provides 8d8 healing spread out with some minor temp hp. Healer lets someone spend a hit die and then the healer adds additional healing on to that.