D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[Zardnaar]

I don't.

That's what ECMO3 described. They specifically said, "By level 5 or so I am generally leaving town with about 30 potions of healing, more if you have enough gold and a bag of holding or something to carry them in."

They were describing being able to buy 30 per character. That's 120-150 potions.

They didn't say per PC. 1500gp at 5th level is to unusual.

I don't sell potions in those quantities usually they find a few or buy a small number.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, manipulation of dice and initiative is good. My disagreement is that martials need to follow the caster time table based on spell, that the reason for this is because the martials need the casters for healing or they can't continue, or that this causes martials to not be able to continue inflicting damage just because the casters want to rest.

IME the group works best when the casters support the martials with spells while the martials inflict damage.

IMO. The times martials may need the casters goes far beyond healing. A far more common scenario is a need for AOE damage or AOE control.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

They didn't say per PC. 1500gp at 5th level is to unusual.

I don't sell potions in those quantities usually they find a few or buy a small number.

Even assuming 7-8 potions per person is a pretty ridiculous amount at that level. That's 350-400 GP per person just on healing potions, with the expectation of blowing a further 100-200 per character, minimum, every time you return to town. (For comparison, based on the average treasure results 5e recommends at various levels, this would mean every PC blows 2/3 of all the wealth they've ever had on healing potions at 5th level...and then consistently continues pouring out at least the same absolute amount almost every time they go back to town.)

Further, each potion only restores 2d4+2 HP, meaning an average of 7. At 5th level, the typical character has 5d8 hit dice and probably a +1 or +2 Con mod (I will err on the lower side, as that is more favorable to the "PCs have tons of healing potions" argument). Using static numbers, that's 9 (=8+1) from first level and 24 (=(5+1)x4) from levelling up, for a total of 33 HP. A single full heal requires more than half of those potions (five out of eight if we're being generous).

Even if we make very generous assumptions that this party is really good at ending combats really fast, they fight very few encounters (only 5) per adventuring day, and they fight consistently lower-than-party-level CR monsters with weak damage, AND we assume that the party never ever wastes even a single point of healing (zero inefficiency), this doesn't work out. Assume 8 healing potions per person for a four-person 5th level party, so 32 potions, for an expected output of 224 HP, vs rough approximate party HP of 132 (this is favoring the healing potion argument: if I assume Fighter-like HP and high Con mods, the healing potions are comparatively worse). So even with spending 1600 GP on healing potions, the party can at best heal about 1.5x their total hit points. Hit dice add in a further (6x5x4) = 120 average per day (it should actually be closer to 110, but I will pretend that hit dice yield above-average results.)

Now, how about those monsters? We'll assume they take on three fights against a single CR3 enemy (quite weak compared to this party) and two fights against a single CR4 enemy (weaker but not quite as much). These fights allow for three enemy turns each. For CR 3, average DPR is 23.5, so a single combat results in ~70 damage, spread across the party; for CR 4, average DPR 29.5, so a single one of these combats results in ~88 damage (both results rounded down). Notice that even one single fight, of only 3 rounds, against a weaker opponent, still results in the party losing more than half their total HP.

So, we add it up. Hit dice restore ~120 per day. The party takes about 70x3+2x88 = 386 damage taken. I'll reduce that by 10%, since the monster might be inefficient with damage (e.g. damage which takes a target below 0 which is then immediately removed when that target is healed, since healing starts from 0), to a final damage-taken total of 347. So, after hit dice, this party needs about 347-120 = 227 healing. 227/7 (healing required divided by the average healing from a single health potion) = 32.42... But, again, we're assuming perfect efficiency and I have consistently rounded in the "healing potions are enough" camp's favor, so I will do that again here and say it's 32.

Meaning, this party burns through their entire supply of 32 healing potions in a single day, WITH counting their hit dice healing!

And this was assuming few, fast, easy combats. Even if we were to shorten it to only two enemy-attack-rounds per encounter, we would still burn through that entire stack of 32 potions before the end of the second day of adventuring.

So, no. I don't accept this argument that healing potions alone are enough, nor that the party is easily able to keep a stock of 30+ potions on hand at essentially all times. The math simply doesn't add up--unless the group is flagrantly, egregiously ignoring nearly all the encounter design expectations of 5e (e.g. having 4 or fewer combats per day, having almost exclusively ridiculously-easy combats, and/or bringing in other sources of healing) AND spending essentially all wealth they've collected up to level 5 on healing potions, and then consistently maintaining or growing that spending every single time they go back to a large town or city thereafter...which they apparently must do on a very regular basis, as in, at least every other adventuring day.

 

[Zardnaar]

Even assuming 7-8 potions per person is a pretty ridiculous amount at that level. That's 350-400 GP per person just on healing potions, with the expectation of blowing a further 100-200 per character, minimum, every time you return to town. (For comparison, based on the average treasure results 5e recommends at various levels, this would mean every PC blows 2/3 of all the wealth they've ever had on healing potions at 5th level...and then consistently continues pouring out at least the same absolute amount almost every time they go back to town.)

Further, each potion only restores 2d4+2 HP, meaning an average of 7. At 5th level, the typical character has 5d8 hit dice and probably a +1 or +2 Con mod (I will err on the lower side, as that is more favorable to the "PCs have tons of healing potions" argument). Using static numbers, that's 9 (=8+1) from first level and 24 (=(5+1)x4) from levelling up, for a total of 33 HP. A single full heal requires more than half of those potions (five out of eight if we're being generous).

Even if we make very generous assumptions that this party is really good at ending combats really fast, they fight very few encounters (only 5) per adventuring day, and they fight consistently lower-than-party-level CR monsters with weak damage, AND we assume that the party never ever wastes even a single point of healing (zero inefficiency), this doesn't work out. Assume 8 healing potions per person for a four-person 5th level party, so 32 potions, for an expected output of 224 HP, vs rough approximate party HP of 132 (this is favoring the healing potion argument: if I assume Fighter-like HP and high Con mods, the healing potions are comparatively worse). So even with spending 1600 GP on healing potions, the party can at best heal about 1.5x their total hit points. Hit dice add in a further (6x5x4) = 120 average per day (it should actually be closer to 110, but I will pretend that hit dice yield above-average results.)

Now, how about those monsters? We'll assume they take on three fights against a single CR3 enemy (quite weak compared to this party) and two fights against a single CR4 enemy (weaker but not quite as much). These fights allow for three enemy turns each. For CR 3, average DPR is 23.5, so a single combat results in ~70 damage, spread across the party; for CR 4, average DPR 29.5, so a single one of these combats results in ~88 damage (both results rounded down). Notice that even one single fight, of only 3 rounds, against a weaker opponent, still results in the party losing more than half their total HP.

So, we add it up. Hit dice restore ~120 per day. The party takes about 70x3+2x88 = 386 damage taken. I'll reduce that by 10%, since the monster might be inefficient with damage (e.g. damage which takes a target below 0 which is then immediately removed when that target is healed, since healing starts from 0), to a final damage-taken total of 347. So, after hit dice, this party needs about 347-120 = 227 healing. 227/7 (healing required divided by the average healing from a single health potion) = 32.42... But, again, we're assuming perfect efficiency and I have consistently rounded in the "healing potions are enough" camp's favor, so I will do that again here and say it's 32.

Meaning, this party burns through their entire supply of 32 healing potions in a single day, WITH counting their hit dice healing!

And this was assuming few, fast, easy combats. Even if we were to shorten it to only two enemy-attack-rounds per encounter, we would still burn through that entire stack of 32 potions before the end of the second day of adventuring.

So, no. I don't accept this argument that healing potions alone are enough, nor that the party is easily able to keep a stock of 30+ potions on hand at essentially all times. The math simply doesn't add up--unless the group is flagrantly, egregiously ignoring nearly all the encounter design expectations of 5e (e.g. having 4 or fewer combats per day, having almost exclusively ridiculously-easy combats, and/or bringing in other sources of healing) AND spending essentially all wealth they've collected up to level 5 on healing potions, and then consistently maintaining or growing that spending every single time they go back to a large town or city thereafter...which they apparently must do on a very regular basis, as in, at least every other adventuring day.

Except that CR 3 isn't getting a turn a lot of the times imo it has to hit.

Command, Tasha's, gold spells etc then the martial beat it up.

Controls very strong now along with martial damage. Spellcaster damage is poor generally.

There's nit much else to spend coin on. ECMO3 group went to a but of an extreme tbh.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Except that CR 3 isn't getting a turn a lot of the times imo it has to hit.

Perhaps, perhaps not. The point was that I was low-balling the results, intentionally going for extremely easy combats rather than brutally difficult (which everything I've ever seen about 5e indicates 90%+ of DMs favor brutally-difficult combats, both my personal experiences and what I read on this forum and elsewhere), intentionally under-estimating the amount of HP the PCs need to restore, intentionally over-estimating how much HP they'd get from HD, etc.

I took essentially every possible assumption I could in favor of this explanation, and the math still come up unfavorably.

Command, Tasha's, gold spells etc then the martial beat it up.

Controls very strong now along with martial damage. Spellcaster damage is poor generally.

Not interested in engaging with you on this a fourth time in the same thread. I know where you stand. You know where I stand. It hasn't changed.

There's nit much else to spend coin on. ECMO3 group went to a but of an extreme tbh.

Whether there is or isn't isn't relevant. The point was the claim that
(1) Parties can acquire an amount of healing potions which make them functionally unlimited by level 5
(2) The listed quantity (30-ish) is in fact an amount that would make them functionally unlimited for most groups

I believe I have conclusively shown that neither of these statements is reasonable. The first cannot be assumed because of the explicit leeway the text gives, and the initially prohibitive cost. (Perhaps by level 8, I could accept it, but 5? No, sorry, don't accept that.) The second I have mathematically shown to be a very flawed assessment, despite making assumption after assumption in its favor.

 

[FrogReaver]

Except that CR 3 isn't getting a turn a lot of the times imo it has to hit.

Command, Tasha's, gold spells etc then the martial beat it up.

Controls very strong now along with martial damage. Spellcaster damage is poor generally.

There's nit much else to spend coin on. ECMO3 group went to a but of an extreme tbh.

I’ve used save or suck control many times. I’ve had a boss keep failing its hold monster save. Was epic for us.

However, I’ve also failed to land something like Tasha’s on a single enemy for 2 rounds in a row. That was rough. Was like the party was down a whole pc for the biggest most important part of the fight.

Which highlights what IMO is the biggest problem with save or suck in 5e. You can’t rely on it working in the hardest encounters. It probably will. But it might not and 2 rounds of missing with it is essentially doing nothing.

 

[FrogReaver]

Even assuming 7-8 potions per person is a pretty ridiculous amount at that level. That's 350-400 GP per person just on healing potions, with the expectation of blowing a further 100-200 per character, minimum, every time you return to town. (For comparison, based on the average treasure results 5e recommends at various levels, this would mean every PC blows 2/3 of all the wealth they've ever had on healing potions at 5th level...and then consistently continues pouring out at least the same absolute amount almost every time they go back to town.)

Further, each potion only restores 2d4+2 HP, meaning an average of 7. At 5th level, the typical character has 5d8 hit dice and probably a +1 or +2 Con mod (I will err on the lower side, as that is more favorable to the "PCs have tons of healing potions" argument). Using static numbers, that's 9 (=8+1) from first level and 24 (=(5+1)x4) from levelling up, for a total of 33 HP. A single full heal requires more than half of those potions (five out of eight if we're being generous).

Even if we make very generous assumptions that this party is really good at ending combats really fast, they fight very few encounters (only 5) per adventuring day, and they fight consistently lower-than-party-level CR monsters with weak damage, AND we assume that the party never ever wastes even a single point of healing (zero inefficiency), this doesn't work out. Assume 8 healing potions per person for a four-person 5th level party, so 32 potions, for an expected output of 224 HP, vs rough approximate party HP of 132 (this is favoring the healing potion argument: if I assume Fighter-like HP and high Con mods, the healing potions are comparatively worse). So even with spending 1600 GP on healing potions, the party can at best heal about 1.5x their total hit points. Hit dice add in a further (6x5x4) = 120 average per day (it should actually be closer to 110, but I will pretend that hit dice yield above-average results.)

Now, how about those monsters? We'll assume they take on three fights against a single CR3 enemy (quite weak compared to this party) and two fights against a single CR4 enemy (weaker but not quite as much). These fights allow for three enemy turns each. For CR 3, average DPR is 23.5, so a single combat results in ~70 damage, spread across the party; for CR 4, average DPR 29.5, so a single one of these combats results in ~88 damage (both results rounded down). Notice that even one single fight, of only 3 rounds, against a weaker opponent, still results in the party losing more than half their total HP.

So, we add it up. Hit dice restore ~120 per day. The party takes about 70x3+2x88 = 386 damage taken. I'll reduce that by 10%, since the monster might be inefficient with damage (e.g. damage which takes a target below 0 which is then immediately removed when that target is healed, since healing starts from 0), to a final damage-taken total of 347. So, after hit dice, this party needs about 347-120 = 227 healing. 227/7 (healing required divided by the average healing from a single health potion) = 32.42... But, again, we're assuming perfect efficiency and I have consistently rounded in the "healing potions are enough" camp's favor, so I will do that again here and say it's 32.

Meaning, this party burns through their entire supply of 32 healing potions in a single day, WITH counting their hit dice healing!

And this was assuming few, fast, easy combats. Even if we were to shorten it to only two enemy-attack-rounds per encounter, we would still burn through that entire stack of 32 potions before the end of the second day of adventuring.

So, no. I don't accept this argument that healing potions alone are enough, nor that the party is easily able to keep a stock of 30+ potions on hand at essentially all times. The math simply doesn't add up--unless the group is flagrantly, egregiously ignoring nearly all the encounter design expectations of 5e (e.g. having 4 or fewer combats per day, having almost exclusively ridiculously-easy combats, and/or bringing in other sources of healing) AND spending essentially all wealth they've collected up to level 5 on healing potions, and then consistently maintaining or growing that spending every single time they go back to a large town or city thereafter...which they apparently must do on a very regular basis, as in, at least every other adventuring day.

I feel like you are vastly over estimating the amount of damage a level 5 party is going to take from your proposed encounters.

My initial guess is that these encounters won’t actually grant the CR 3 monsters 3 rounds of attacks (typically). Probably more like 1-2 if the party uses some of their abilities (especially with martial damage buffs in 5.5e).

Also, when you say DPR do you mean average damage? Because that number likely needs at least halved to account for PC AC.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I feel like you are vastly over estimating the amount of damage a level 5 party is going to take from your proposed encounters.

My initial guess is that these encounters won’t actually grant the CR 3 monsters 3 rounds of attacks (typically). Probably more like 1-2 if the party uses some of their abilities (especially with martial damage buffs in 5.5e).

Also, when you say DPR do you mean average damage? Because that number likely needs at least halved to account for PC AC.

I was using reference material (repeated in multiple places) which referred to this as "DPR", not as the other. If they used the term wrongly, I apologize, but I went with what I found.

Even still, this party should be facing...y'know...CR 5 or higher opponents some of the time. And they should probably be getting more than five encounters between long rests at least some of the time. And, and, and.

So, okay, sure--I made one possible, debatable, error that might bias things against the potions. I then intentionally dropped the damage by 10% already, AND allowed for it to be split across multiple days.

It still isn't enough. I stand by my argument. Unless and until someone is willing to crunch numbers in a way that is clearly NOT biased favorably toward the claims being made, I am quite comfortable saying that the data does not support the claim that having a stash of 30 potions on hand is "plenty"--if the group is in fact actually running the game the way the designers designed it.

If they are instead running far fewer combats (IME the actual culprit here), or far easier combats, or getting way more treasure than intended much earlier on, then of course potions could easily be enough--the party literally isn't facing the level of danger the game was designed for. And, in particular? Running fewer combats per day, against easier opponents, is more favorable to casters than non-casters. Then they don't even NEED to argue that the group should stop and rest--the group already IS stopping and resting at times and in ways that promote far too many spells per combat!

 

[FrogReaver]

@EzekielRaiden

I have a bit of free time and am a bit bored.

If you will pick the 5 encounters I’ll make a party of 4 level 5 PCs (I think that was your comparison) and run the mock adventuring day.

Probably something like a

1. Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin
2. Cleric/Druid
3. Wizard/Sorcerer
4. Ranger/Monk/Rogue

 

[EzekielRaiden]

@EzekielRaiden

I have a bit of free time and am a bit bored.

If you will pick the 5 encounters I’ll make a party of 4 level 5 PCs (I think that was your comparison) and run the mock adventuring day.

Probably something like a

1. Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin
2. Cleric/Druid
3. Wizard/Sorcerer
4. Ranger/Monk/Rogue

I fear I need to sleep, very badly, and have taken medicine to that effect. But I will be happy to do this later, assuming you still have time then. If you do not, I will not in any way hold this against you; the offer is most generous.