D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[FrogReaver]

I fear I need to sleep, very badly, and have taken medicine to that effect. But I will be happy to do this later, assuming you still have time then. If you do not, I will not in any way hold this against you; the offer is most generous.

Sounds good. If I get busier later I’ll get to it soon.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

@EzekielRaiden

I have a bit of free time and am a bit bored.

If you will pick the 5 encounters I’ll make a party of 4 level 5 PCs (I think that was your comparison) and run the mock adventuring day.

Probably something like a

1. Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin
2. Cleric/Druid
3. Wizard/Sorcerer
4. Ranger/Monk/Rogue

Ooh, ooh!!! Fun. Sword & board Zealot barb, with bonus action heals to upset the apple cart?

 

[FrogReaver]

Ooh, ooh!!! Fun. Sword & board Zealot barb, with bonus action heals to upset the apple cart?

Maybe.

I’m pretty evenly split between Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian.

Cleric/Druid is same.

I think I’ve decided on Sorcerer and Ranger though. Not sure on subclasses yet.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think I've decided on a couple more details for party PC.

Gloom Stalker Ranger (race, feats ASI, spells TBD).
Dragon Sorcerer (race, feats ASI, spells TBD).

If Cleric it will be a Light Cleric.
If Druid I'm not sure on subclass. Leaning a bit toward Stars, but really any would be cool.

If Fighter will be Battlemaster.
If Paladin undecided on subclass
If Barbarian leaning heavily toward zealot.

 

[Ashrym]

I don't.

That's what ECMO3 described. They specifically said, "By level 5 or so I am generally leaving town with about 30 potions of healing, more if you have enough gold and a bag of holding or something to carry them in."

They were describing being able to buy 30 per character. That's 120-150 potions.

I was confused because a 5th level cleric has 9 spell slots that aren't all dedicated to healing. A party of five has 25 hit dice available for healing plus potions plus whatnot.

IME the spells are the smaller part of the healing.

I find 7-8 healing potions each to be a high number but reasonably achievable if the players are trying to do that. I find that martials carry more healing potions than other classes, though.

Stacks of healing potions is more MMORPG than TTRPG in my experience.

Pretty big if, there. Certainly not going to be representative of most campaigns, nor even a mere plurality of campaigns.


And yet "there isn't anyone here who can make healing potions" is both (a) something I have heard multiple times, and (b) explicitly supported by the DMG text, as quoted. Are you disputing what the DMG text says?


Both cases still depend on the (very big) if that the group is using that system.

A group not using the options available isn't an issue with the options not being available. That's on the group ignoring those options.

Do you have statistics on how many groups are or are not using bastions? Strongholds have been a part of the game consistently and bastions only define benefits a bit better. We should probably discuss them more instead of dismissing them.

They didn't say per PC. 1500gp at 5th level is to unusual.

I don't sell potions in those quantities usually they find a few or buy a small number.

I don't sell potions in those quantities either, or buy them in those quantities because I haven't had a DM who sells them like that either.

IMO. The times martials may need the casters goes far beyond healing. A far more common scenario is a need for AOE damage or AOE control.

That's 100% true. The time the casters are shining is against numbers of opponents. It's a bit beside the point I was arguing where martial characters are reliant on healing, or even status effects, from casters.

The trip, push, move method of avoiding damage is pretty useful one-on-one, and stunning fist is still a thing. Martial classes have status effects built into weapon mastery and class / subclass features. Martial classes have healing from hit dice, potions, feats, and built into class / subclass features.

The argument about damage that I disagree with is that martial classes are required to rest just because casters want to rest.

 

[Zardnaar]

I was confused because a 5th level cleric has 9 spell slots that aren't all dedicated to healing. A party of five has 25 hit dice available for healing plus potions plus whatnot.

IME the spells are the smaller part of the healing.

I find 7-8 healing potions each to be a high number but reasonably achievable if the players are trying to do that. I find that martials carry more healing potions than other classes, though.

Stacks of healing potions is more MMORPG than TTRPG in my experience.



A group not using the options available isn't an issue with the options not being available. That's on the group ignoring those options.

Do you have statistics on how many groups are or are not using bastions? Strongholds have been a part of the game consistently and bastions only define benefits a bit better. We should probably discuss them more instead of dismissing them.



I don't sell potions in those quantities either, or buy them in those quantities because I haven't had a DM who sells them like that either.



That's 100% true. The time the casters are shining is against numbers of opponents. It's a bit beside the point I was arguing where martial characters are reliant on healing, or even status effects, from casters.

The trip, push, move method of avoiding damage is pretty useful one-on-one, and stunning fist is still a thing. Martial classes have status effects built into weapon mastery and class / subclass features. Martial classes have healing from hit dice, potions, feats, and built into class / subclass features.

The argument about damage that I disagree with is that martial classes are required to rest just because casters want to rest.

Parties normally est when all casters are low. Some new players dtendvto blow their biggest spelks ASAP but they're figuring out pacing a bit better as they're reduced to cantrips.

They did rest in a dungeon onc. They got hit at night during said rest and the surviving caster dropped glyphs of warding everywhere and moved the quest item.

Living world vs static and reactive dungeons. 5MWD an online assumption imho.

 

[Zardnaar]

I’ve used save or suck control many times. I’ve had a boss keep failing its hold monster save. Was epic for us.

However, I’ve also failed to land something like Tasha’s on a single enemy for 2 rounds in a row. That was rough. Was like the party was down a whole pc for the biggest most important part of the fight.

Which highlights what IMO is the biggest problem with save or suck in 5e. You can’t rely on it working in the hardest encounters. It probably will. But it might not and 2 rounds of missing with it is essentially doing nothing.

That's why I rate new sorcerer so highly. 1 sorcery point to twin spell. Command. Tashas tashas mind whip, hol person.

Odds are you won't get 4 failed saves over two rounds vs 10%25% chance of what you got.

Also why I think wizards are comparatively weak in 5.5 vs other options like bonus action command on Glamour bards.

 

[CreamCloud0]

That's why I rate new sorcerer so highly. 1 sorcery point to twin spell. Command. Tashas tashas mind whip, hol person.

could we actually get the old twinned spell back though too? the version that actually twins spells

 

[Zardnaar]

could we actually get the old twinned spell back though too? the version that actually twins spells

Thunk I prefer new one. It's a lot cheaper sorcery point wise.

 

[FrogReaver]

The argument about damage that I disagree with is that martial classes are required to rest just because casters want to rest.

Right, but there also seems to be an assumption in there that casters will need rest more often for spells than martials need to for hp. In my experience that's certainly not been the case, especially for 2024. Maybe the lone exception being if they are spending alot of slots healing the party, particularly the front line martials.

The one class that tended to need to long rest the most was paladin, mostly because after using your 2-6 spell slots early in the day on smites the class just wasn't very fun and not super effective anymore (yes, you didn't have to play a Paladin that way but almost everyone did).

Full Casters tend to use a single concentration spell and possible a defensive or mobility option if the situation called for it.