D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[FrogReaver]

That assumption is there because we're comparing spell slots that require a long rest to recover to martial abilities that require a short rest to recover. The martials are actually resting more often but the rest can be done many times while the casters are still taking that one rest.

I like the mercy monk. Unloading focus points on hand of healing and then taking a short rest refills those focus points to do it again. That can be done many times while casters are taking the time to recover their spell slots.

I like the world tree barbarian. Taking a rest recovers a use of rage that powers vitality of the tree for temp hit points that mitigate damage.

Those are two pretty solid options.

We often build are parties with the assumption that we'll rely on spells. We can build our parties with the assumption that we won't rely on spells.

I don't really disagree in principle, but I don't see why you think that is a counterpoint to what I said.

Casters still often still have slots left at the end of the day when martials are out of hp/hit dice/martial healing resources.

 

[Zardnaar]

It depends on the game. 50 potions is about the same cost as plate and the vast majority of games the warrior has enough for that by level 5.

If you buy 30, that will usually last a long time, sometimes an entire adventure (as you augment with stuff you buyfind, rests

Even if you only have enough for 5 at every town (250 gold), that is still going to usually be enough until you get more money to restock and it is relatively rare you can't afford 250 gold at that level. If they can't afford that kind of laydown for potions then they can't afford it for spell components either, and that takes som of the best spells off the table. You are not using things like Greater Restoration, Revivify, Protection from Evil and Good, Find Familiar ....

Games vary as far aswhat we can buy, but games where we can't buy PHB adventuring gear in whatever quantities we can afford and carry are rare..

I hand out enough loot but don't run supermarket magic items.

Generally curated items and smaller amounts. Nothing wrong with your groups approach I suspect I'm more generous than some here as well.

Atm I'm running it kinda like BG3. I'llusually give then a map of the town or whatever and they look for vendors and other NPCs if they're so inclined.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

That assumption is there because we're comparing spell slots that require a long rest to recover to martial abilities that require a short rest to recover. The martials are actually resting more often but the rest can be done many times while the casters are still taking that one rest.

I like the mercy monk. Unloading focus points on hand of healing and then taking a short rest refills those focus points to do it again. That can be done many times while casters are taking the time to recover their spell slots.

I like the world tree barbarian. Taking a rest recovers a use of rage that powers vitality of the tree for temp hit points that mitigate damage.

Those are two pretty solid options.

We often build are parties with the assumption that we'll rely on spells. We can build our parties with the assumption that we won't rely on spells.

Or you could run Zealot with d12 bonus action heals. I love crafting the periapt of wound closure that doubles HD healing as well, speaking of making long-haul sufficient characters.

Though the grindiest long-hauler I've ever made was the spear-and-shield champion. That guy just seemed to quest without rest. You add shield mastery, polearm mastery, a suboptimal great weapon master to drop the shield and switch to damage/cleave weapon mode... surprising depth and options of bonus, reaction, extra attacks... all while making a nonstop grinder

 

[Ashrym]

I don't really disagree in principle, but I don't see why you think that is a counterpoint to what I said.

Casters still often still have slots left at the end of the day when martials are out of hp/hit dice/martial healing resources.

Why would it be the "end of the day" if the casters still have spell slots and the martials can take a short rest to recover resources? Why did they run out of hit dice so fast (the party has way more hit dice than the casters have spell slots dedicated to healing)?

 

[Ashrym]

Or you could run Zealot with d12 bonus action heals. I love crafting the periapt of wound closure that doubles HD healing as well, speaking of making long-haul sufficient characters.

Those are a long rest resource. That helps but doesn't work with an argument for short rest recovery options. ;-)

 

[FrogReaver]

Why would it be the "end of the day" if the casters still have spell slots and the martials can take a short rest to recover resources? Why did they run out of hit dice so fast (the party has way more hit dice than the casters have spell slots dedicated to healing)?

Why would the casters wait on the martials to short rest if the martials won’t wait on the casters to long rest?

 

[Theory of Games]

In the D&D multiverse of editions, there has never been a Fighter or Fighter subclass that can rival the destructive power of the arcane caster. MAYBE 1st-level (though, the improved Sleep spell is craziness)?

But after that, it's a Wizard's world. And it's bigger than DPR: you have to consider the effectiveness of spells that, while not doing damage, can take enemies out of the fight.

 

[Zardnaar]

In the D&D multiverse of editions, there has never been a Fighter or Fighter subclass that can rival the destructive power of the arcane caster. MAYBE 1st-level (though, the improved Sleep spell is craziness)?

But after that, it's a Wizard's world. And it's bigger than DPR: you have to consider the effectiveness of spells that, while not doing damage, can take enemies out of the fight.

Sleep was the most OP spell back then. Early at least.

Peak fireball as well maybe B/X.

 

[Theory of Games]

Sleep was the most OP spell back then. Early at least.

Peak fireball as well maybe B/X.

I agree (mostly).

I'm just ......... I'm always amazed that people think martials compare to casters. It's never been close.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

I agree (mostly).

I'm just ......... I'm always amazed that people think martials compare to casters. It's never been close.

I'm not here to debate the merits, but just to offer a different point of view.

The issue has never been one, at least for me, about the actual mechanical differences. I bemoan the idea that it needs to be "fixed" because in the many games, for many different people, that I'd been in, it never actually surfaces. It's a ghost.

If players naturally share the spotlight, which is my experience, the issue largely melts away. Players realize that a situation is for the rogue. They realize this encounter is for the barbarian. And so on. And so every game more than enough people want to be a martial, and every game someone volunteers to be a caster. In every game, this "problem" seems to cease to be a "problem."

So the question is, how much does a theoretical problem matter if most of the community doesn't see it in their games? If martial classes dominate the only hard data we have, and half of a deeply enfranchised board, such as Enworld, disagree on the topic, is it possible the problem only exists in theory?

I don't know the answer, and I doubt we ever will. I do know that theory and practice can diverge sometimes, and I wonder if this is one of those instances.