D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't really disagree in principle, but I don't see why you think that is a counterpoint to what I said.

Casters still often still have slots left at the end of the day when martials are out of hp/hit dice/martial healing resources.

Trick for the casters is to spend the right amount of spells. Not too many and not too few.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Those are a long rest resource. That helps but doesn't work with an argument for short rest recovery options. ;-)

I think you are correct in this case, though those d12 go a really long way for that raging barb to the point that I'm not even using all of them before the rest of the party is hoping for a break ... So, basically it works by the sheer effectiveness of the resource to extend out the length of time before you need to think about resting.

It could depend on analysis complexity too, because barb grows in survivability proportional to teamwork dynamics whereas zealot is a more insular focus... Zealot is a little easier to figure in a vacuum and direct compare versus the more team-interactive

 

[ECMO3]

That sounds more like ddo than the ttrpg version of d&d where a real flesh & blood human takes the role of gm.your description of what you regularly present as big standard examples of gameplay is so incredibly unique im wondering if you happen to play in a group with 29-39 regular AI users?

I don't think it is unique at all. I am a believer in AI and use it extensively for art in my games (both as a DM and a player) but I have never played a D&D game without a real flesh and blood DM (not counting video games like BG3).

I think a game where the DM says you can't buy standard PHB adventuring gear is what would be uncommon.

Also as I mentioned earlier, in terms of funds, most published WOTC adventures provide treasure aplenty to do that, so it would need to be the DM saying something is specifically not available for it not to be and as noted by Ezekiel - the DMG says specifically that common magic items are "often" available in towns. That means sometimes they might not be, but they frequently are.

TBH if a DM is going to limit how much standard adventuring gear we can buy, I would expect that to come up in session 0 and I would be pretty annoyed if he told me I could only buy 1 or 2 potions after we were 5 sessions in.

Finally, I will offer an example from early 2024 play of something that dramatically changed and how the DM handled it: The first 2024 1-20 campaign one of my regular groups played we noticed a Rings of Resistance is no longer attunement. At the end of the campaign everyone in the party EXCEPT my PC had a ring of resistance for every damage type - essentially full time, permanent resistance to all damage. I did not have it, but I could have I just didn't bother (I did have 3 or 4 of them myself). This was something new in 2024 because of the new 2024 rules and attunement change. After that campaign the DM houseruled that a player can only wear 2 magic rings at once. Totally sensible houserule, but he made it in session 0 AFTER the campaign with most PCs having 10 rings of resistance, not in the middle of that campaign. In the first campaign he let it go specifically because he did not mention it in session 0.

 

[ECMO3]

I hand out enough loot but don't run supermarket magic items.

I don't run magic supermarkets either and niether do most of the games I play as a PC. But potions of Healing are an exception as they are adventuring gear in the PHB.

Do you allow Alchemists Fire or spell foci?

 

[ECMO3]

In the D&D multiverse of editions, there has never been a Fighter or Fighter subclass that can rival the destructive power of the arcane caster. MAYBE 1st-level (though, the improved Sleep spell is craziness)?

But after that, it's a Wizard's world. And it's bigger than DPR: you have to consider the effectiveness of spells that, while not doing damage, can take enemies out of the fight.

As far as base mechanics and what is possible in 5E or 2024 I would agree. In play though an optimized fighter will generally destroy a caster in terms of average DPR or total damage over the course of a campaign.

Part of this is that a caster using spell slots for damage is often wasting those slots because of their comparative value for other things (as you allude to).

I don't think this is true in all editions thoug. In 1E AD&D a Fighter and its subclasses rule in both overall power and DPR. While you can talk about what is theoretically possible for a 1E Arcane caster, in RAW play they were EXTREMELY weak. For example, Fireball is a great DPR spell, but your 1E 5th level Magic-User only has a 3% chance of even knowing fireball and is just as likely to have rolled up Feign Death or Detect Illusion as the 3rd level spell in his book. And even if he does know it, he can't cast it in combat very well unless he wins initiative and uses it on the first round, and that is before we start talking about Magic Resistance.

Pretty much in 1E you had Fighters to do the fighting, the talking, the leading and playing the main role. At high level they were literally Lords. Clerics to do the Healing to keep the fighter swinging, Thiefs are useful on the rare occasion you needed a lock picked. After that everyone else was a plot device.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Most published adventures will provide enough funds to do this.

Just so we're clear. You're claiming most published adventures provide at least 5000 gp by the time the characters are level 5.

 

[James Gasik]

I guess we have to figure out how much gp published adventures do give out. Let's look at the starter adventure, LMoP. Fortunately, someone has done the work for us-

LMoP

So if these numbers are correct, your newly minted 5th level party has 5,200 gp after completion of LMoP (this doesn't count the magic items found in the adventure). So 1300 gp apiece for a 4 man party.

Curiously, the 2014 DMG tells us that if you start your game at levels 5-10, the characters should have starting gear plus 637 gp and 5 sp. Even by high magic standards, you'd have 1 uncommon magic item.

So LMoP radically deviates from the DMG, though I think that's more because a guy with 1300 gp and magic items in his back pocket has less reason to go out and adventure than anything else. YMMV.

 

[Ashrym]

Why would the casters wait on the martials to short rest if the martials won’t wait on the casters to long rest?

Let them try. What's going to happens is they'll burn through those slots even faster and the martial classes will still be able to take many short rests while the casters are waiting out their long rest.

You didn't explain how those few spell slots outlasted the hit dice, however. ;-)

 

[Zardnaar]

Well today had a spellcaster deal around. Think that was a record today.

It was really the control spells carrying. Combination of command, tashas hideous laughter and hold person.

3 casters locked down 7 humans via hold person after winning initiative. Bouncing level 4 chromatic orb on 5 of them critical hits on 2 due to paralysis.

12d8 damage X2, 6d8 X2 and 6d8+5. A bit overkill though.

 

[FrogReaver]

Let them try. What's going to happens is they'll burn through those slots even faster and the martial classes will still be able to take many short rests while the casters are waiting out their long rest.

You didn't explain how those few spell slots outlasted the hit dice, however. ;-)

And let’s see the martials even win the encounters without the casters…

All I did was provide an experience that many here can relate to. In actual play martials often (not always) run low on hp before casters run out of spell slots.

I think it’s worth noting that a typical martial cannot even fully restore their hp in the day on average via hit dice. And since characters rarely take damage at the same times then most of the party’s hit dice aren’t actually useful before other recovery options or a long rest needs considered just for that single party member that’s taken the most damage this day. A casters slots don’t have to outlast the whole parties hp. The casters slots just have to outlast the most damaged PCs hp. I’d suggest this is a big part of why in practice many of us often see slots outlast hp.