What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[mamba]

Both Drawsteel and Pathfinder compete in the exact same niche: low roleplay tactical boardgame like experiences with map figurines that get to have names.

The other new RPGs went for new niches: Daggerheart sits in the middle between boardgame and roleplay

where does 5e sit?

 

[SteveC]

Both Drawsteel and Pathfinder compete in the exact same niche: low roleplay tactical boardgame like experiences with map figurines that get to have names.

I'd say that is very much your personal opinion. Neither of these games talks about themselves in this way and my experience running and playing Pathfinder, it has the same level of roleplay as a game like D&D has ever had. Which is to say it's what you make of it.

One of the Actual Play podcasts I listen to is Tabletop Gold, which is playing Abomination Vaults. That's a dungeon crawl AP. And it has some truly excellent roleplay segments. I suggest checking that out to see how roleplay is just as much a part of Pathfinder (and "D20" rpgs in general) as you wish.

 

[Retreater]

I'd be interested to know how they're doing so reliably, however; I played a gunslinger, and there's actually fairly few ways to push up your crit chance much (largely because guns are Fatal weapons, and as such do massive crit damage when they can).

He doesn't need it because the ACs have all been easily critted in the first attack (usually crits on a 14+) and has something like double shot where he doubles the chances.

Among other things if you're functioning as the only interceptor, the gunslinger should be having problems in their face at least some of the time, and its not like a routine hit is going to stop that from happening

Battlefield design is part of it. He can stand on elevation or at the back of a narrowish corridor. Also he has a feat that lets him move away and shoot (or maybe reload), also gets to move when he rolls Initiative, I think.
When we do large area combats, he can blast them before he's reached.
So if there's a small area, I intercept everything. If it's a large area, they die before they close the gap. If there are few enemies, we focus fire and drop them quick. If there's a lot of enemies, they're lower level and their defenses are so low that they are critted to oblivion.

 

[Enrahim]

But Drawsteel decided to go for "lets compete head to head with what many suspect is the number 2 RPG, one which has a great company it's fans love, top noche customer support, an insanely regular product release cycle, a huge library of adventures, the best online tools in the industry, communities that make it super easy to fill tables or find a GM, and has almost if not actually no negative vibes about it, and gives fans of it's playstyle almost exactly what they want...

yeah lets take on those guys."

To me that choice just seems really baffling.

My reading is as many others very different. I read it more as them actively targeting the players of the number 1 rpg, providing them something sufficiently different that it warrants the jump, while also providing a playstyle niche that has no big-name presence due to the 4ed taint.

They have been very explicit about hoping many will have this as their second game; not their third

PF2ed might be a tactical combat game; but it feels much more of the "select your next ability" style. Draw steel is a tactical positioning game. Think FF1-10 vs FF tactics. I think the two approaches speaks to different crowds. As such I think PF2 and DS can quite happily co-exist.

 

[Staffan]

My reading is as many others very different. I read it more as them actively targeting the players of the number 1 rpg, providing them something sufficiently different that it warrants the jump, while also providing a playstyle niche that has no big-name presence due to the 4ed taint.

They have been very explicit about hoping many will have this as their second game; not their third

PF2ed might be a tactical combat game; but it feels much more of the "select your next ability" style. Draw steel is a tactical positioning game. Think FF1-10 vs FF tactics. I think the two approaches speaks to different crowds. As such I think PF2 and DS can quite happily co-exist.

Draw Steel also seems like a much more mobile game. You can move up to your speed without any action cost, and where Pathfinder's basic Shove moves someone 5' or 10' on a crit, the basic Knockback maneuver in Draw Steel pushes someone 1/2/3 squares with many different abilities modifying that. And if you look at something combining pushes with attacks, a spell like hydraulic push also only pushes someone 5' on a hit or 10' on a crit (for an actual slotted spell), whereas Draw Steel's Viscous Fire deals some damage and pushes 2/3/4 squares as an at-will ability.

 

[Thomas Shey]

He doesn't need it because the ACs have all been easily critted in the first attack (usually crits on a 14+) and has something like double shot where he doubles the chances.

Ah, that explains it. The GM is putting things out that are downhill in AC. Yeah, that'd do it, but IME its not exactly a typical thing for all or at least most fights, and when there are such things out there, there tend to be rather a lot of them.

Battlefield design is part of it. He can stand on elevation or at the back of a narrowish corridor. Also he has a feat that lets him move away and shoot (or maybe reload), also gets to move when he rolls Initiative, I think.
When we do large area combats, he can blast them before he's reached.
So if there's a small area, I intercept everything. If it's a large area, they die before they close the gap. If there are few enemies, we focus fire and drop them quick. If there's a lot of enemies, they're lower level and their defenses are so low that they are critted to oblivion.

Well, if most encounters are far enough that they favor ranged attackers, and the opposition has none on their side, that's going to have an impact (generally, you don't see a lot of that unless there's cover people covering ground can use--it doesn't matter that the opposition is starting 40 squares away if most of the 40 squares are forest or sand dunes). And even focus fire just isn't that reliable a way to drop opponents if they're actually on -brand for your level; D20's just have too much swing.

I honestly can't help but think a lot of this is an artifact of how the GM or adventure is structured here; its just worlds apart from what I saw in any of the games I played in.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My reading is as many others very different. I read it more as them actively targeting the players of the number 1 rpg, providing them something sufficiently different that it warrants the jump, while also providing a playstyle niche that has no big-name presence due to the 4ed taint.

They have been very explicit about hoping many will have this as their second game; not their third

PF2ed might be a tactical combat game; but it feels much more of the "select your next ability" style. Draw steel is a tactical positioning game. Think FF1-10 vs FF tactics. I think the two approaches speaks to different crowds. As such I think PF2 and DS can quite happily co-exist.

While I agree with a lot of this, I think it underestimates the degree positioning matters for many character types in PF2e.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Draw Steel also seems like a much more mobile game. You can move up to your speed without any action cost, and where Pathfinder's basic Shove moves someone 5' or 10' on a crit, the basic Knockback maneuver in Draw Steel pushes someone 1/2/3 squares with many different abilities modifying that. And if you look at something combining pushes with attacks, a spell like hydraulic push also only pushes someone 5' on a hit or 10' on a crit (for an actual slotted spell), whereas Draw Steel's Viscous Fire deals some damage and pushes 2/3/4 squares as an at-will ability.

That sounds probable. While PF2e has a lot of conditional attacks and such, if one's played 4e, there's no where near the amount of pushing targets around the battlefield; there's just enough to screw up their action economy by the combination of needing to get up and reclose (at least for ones without large reach).

 

[Micah Sweet]

where does 5e sit?

Middle everything, pretty much.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd say that is very much your personal opinion. Neither of these games talks about themselves in this way and my experience running and playing Pathfinder, it has the same level of roleplay as a game like D&D has ever had. Which is to say it's what you make of it.

One of the Actual Play podcasts I listen to is Tabletop Gold, which is playing Abomination Vaults. That's a dungeon crawl AP. And it has some truly excellent roleplay segments. I suggest checking that out to see how roleplay is just as much a part of Pathfinder (and "D20" rpgs in general) as you wish.

Why would any RPG call themselves "low roleplay"? Doesn't necessarily mean they aren't compared to others.