D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[ECMO3]

stats have shown multi-classing is pretty rare among most builds

What stats have shown this?

I've played around 100 different characters since 5E came out and I have only played 1 PC that was over level 3 and was not a multiclass (a Kender Conquest Paladin I played to level 7 in SODQ).

I multiclass more than most, but I am in 6 different campaigns with 6 different gaming groups right now, 2 as a DM and in those here is the breakdown:

DMing DIA: 50% multiclass: Fighter/Barbarian, Fighter/Cleric, Rogue, Sorcerer

DMing DOMM: 75% multiclass: Fighter/Wizard, Cleric/Wizard, Rogue/Paladin, Barbarian

Playing in a homebrew Greyhawk campaign: 40% multiclass: Warlock/Fighter (me), Sorcerer/Rogue, Barbarian, Barbarian, Cleric

Playing in a Homebrew Darksun campaign: 33% multiclass Fighter/Ranger/Bard (me), UA Psion, Cleric

Playing City of Brass: 80% Multiclass: Bard/Rogue/Warlock (me), Paladin/Warlock, Rogue/Fighter, Druid/Monk, Wizard

 

[Zardnaar]

What stats have shown this?

I've played around 100 different characters since 5E came out and I have only played 1 PC that was over level 3 and was not a multiclass (a Kender Conquest Paladin I played to level 7 in SODQ).

I multiclass more than most, but I am in 6 different campaigns with 6 different gaming groups right now, 2 as a DM and in those here is the breakdown:

DMing DIA: 50% multiclass: Fighter/Barbarian, Fighter/Cleric, Rogue, Sorcerer

DMing DOMM: 75% multiclass: Fighter/Wizard, Cleric/Wizard, Rogue/Paladin, Barbarian

Playing in a homebrew Greyhawk campaign: 40% multiclass: Warlock/Fighter (me), Sorcerer/Rogue, Barbarian, Barbarian, Cleric

Playing in a Homebrew Darksun campaign: 33% multiclass Fighter/Ranger/Bard (me), UA Psion, Cleric

Playing City of Brass: 60% Multiclass: Bard/Rogue/Warlock (me), Paladin/Warlock, Rogue/Fighter, Druid/Monk, Wizard

Anecdote though.

My group has one MC characters but its been as high as 3/5 iirc. Varies by game.

 

[ECMO3]

More or less same order but swap dexterity s d con around. Especially con on a spellcaster.

Personally I would still take Dex over Con even on a caster in 2024. The main reason is the save for Grapple or Shove which is Dex.

I get it that Con saves let you maintain concentration, but losing Concentration is not usually the calamity that people say it is since you can usually just cast the spell again or another spell if you can't.

There are a lot of Dex or Wisdom save can really put you in a hurt locker, there are some of those for Con too but not as many I don't think.

 

[Maxperson]

That number was on beyond. The 40 million number was over D&Ds lifetime.

5E you level up a lot faster.

Average out over 50 years that's 8k a year so maybe 2000 groups a year hit high level.

Beyond numbers are gard data, 40 million thing is soft data ak an estimate that's varied at least twice somewhat recently.

Active players is another thing. Im betting theyre lower that that number (beyond it was 1in 6 or 7 iirc).

Very casual players probably wont hit high level at all.

No. There are estimates that there are currently as high as 15 million active players. That's still 150k that reach 20th level, and 1.5 million that hit 10th or higher. Your 8k a year is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low.

 

[Zardnaar]

No. There are estimates that there are currently as high as 15 million active players. That's still 150k that reach 20th level, and 1.5 million that hit 10th or higher. Your 8k a year is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low.

Its still 10% or 1% depending on what counts as high level.

Its not that many in grand scheme of things.

I'm not claiming no one reaches high level.

If you played with a random DM starting at level 1 do you think you'll reach tier 4?

 

[ECMO3]

Not necessarily. If you don't hit a lot anyway, instead of trying to hit AC, casting a spell that forces a save or deals automatic damage might be better.
If you increase your chances to hit from 5% to 17.5% you still suck at hitting.

It might be, but the Cleric in the example is getting a 25% chance to hit without any bonus against a high AC.

What Cleric spell are you going to cast with a 1st level slot that does automatic damage on a failed save? I don't know of any.

There are a few 1st level AOEs and spells from other classes that do this, but I don't think they are beating Bless either over 3 rounds either even with a failed save.

Dissonant Whispers and Burning Hands do 10.5 on a failed save, which would still be less over 3 rounds than using Bless.

What spell are you going to use for this?

Ok. So against hypothetical enemy that has AC 22 and 65 HP, you win over 3 instead of 4 rounds.
Congratulations. You really outsmarted the DM.

Oh no, if the enemy has 70 HP, that does not save you a single round.

This argument works against any 1st level offensive spell you could use and it also assumes the Blessed characters are not getting any other damage bonuses.

Bless just allowed you to deal 20% more damage in a combat against a very high AC foe.
The net benefit however was just 10 damage which can be made up by a single cast of magic missile not costing concentration which might get broken or needed otherwise.

Like I said that is the same for any 1st level offensive spell I can think of, Cleric or not.

Weapon masteries might have a positive effect, but also a negative (graze!) on the calculations.

They will not have a negative effect because a hit is always more damage than a miss

So if that enemy is a spellcaster that targets the party's saves a lot, bless is great here. If the fighters use topple mastery, getting a single hit in allows for attacks with advantage afterwards. A very good combination. Now you start hitting a lot despite the high AC.

With a failed save or a vex weapon regardless of the save, but both the first hit and the attacks with advantage are more likely with Bless.

But still the question is: would it have been better to cast hold person on the enemy, granting advantage and automatic crits to the fighters on the failed save? A level 8 cleric probably has a spell save DC of 15.

If the enemy is a humanoid, yes obviously, but that is a 2nd level spell and a lot more conditional due to the creature type requirement.

If you are looking at 1st level control spells I would say Tasha's Hideous Laughter is the one to compare it to and I would put it ahead of Bless even with the repeated saves with advantage on each hit, but not a Cleric spell so we are still searching for something a Cleric can cast at level 1 to outperform Bless.

 

[FrogReaver]

I allow multiclassing on a case-by-case basis, and in all my years playing D&D I can count the number of multiclassing requests I got on one hand. It’s clunky.

Probably some selection bias there. If a dm tells me multiclassing on a case by case basis I probably don’t even ask. Even though I’d consider it if he just made it a default option.

 

[FrogReaver]

Having two seems like a lot to me. And given that most combat lasts 3 rounds, that means you gain one extra hit at the cost of one hit - next benefit zero.

Side note: wouldn’t it be 1 extra hit vs 0.6 extra hits. Since you need to adjust for accuracy?

 

[FrogReaver]

Not really because it is a high cost for those type enemies. In tier 2 you have limited high level spell slots and you can defeat low CR creatures without using your best resources.

Also CR2 monsters average around 45hps and as many as 85 (Ogre Zombie). Fireball does 27 damage on average with a failed save and about 21 average considering saves. I believe every 2024 CR2 creature has more than 21 hps.

Fireball is situationally useful, but it is not a great spell IMO, compared to other options. If you are considering using Fireball on multiple CR2 enemies; Command at 3rd or 4th level is going to generally be a better use of that slot if you are only looking at non-concentration spells. Not always but usually.

I dint dispute your facts here, but I have to ask, how are you comparing the damage to the control?

Like myself I usually try to estimate how many enemy turns fireball would reduce the encounter by and then do the same for the control spell. I think fireball looks good here vs command. But maybe you compare them differently.

 

[Maxperson]

Its still 10% or 1% depending on what counts as high level.

Its not that many in grand scheme of things.

1.5 million is a huge number and WotC would be fools to leave that money untapped.

If you played with a random DM starting at level 1 do you think you'll reach tier 4?

The only time I've ever played with random DMs is at game conventions, and yes, sometimes they hand out tier 4 PCs. With the non-random DMs I've played with over the decades, every DM from 3e on has gone to 10+, yes.