D&D 5E Running High Level 5E is more fun than I thought it would be.

S'mon · Apr 9, 2020

toucanbuzz said:
Second, 5E high level characters are insane (IF they get magic items, which unless you're a jerk you're handing out). In Out of the Abyss, I ran it to 14th level. As written, the party would've mopped the floor with Demogorgon, even full power. That's not right.

I don't see a problem with that. I think the best approach is to have your BBEG demon lord have allies with him - allies almost always make for a more interesting fight, and make a huge difference in 5e especially.

Edit: 5e caps PCs at level 20 at what I find is a pretty manageable power level. Even with a ton of Epic Boons they can still be challenged. I find Pathfinder high level stuff converts great to high level 5e; last year we finished Shattered Star #6 - Dead Heart of Xin, and the PCs are now on Rise of the Runelords #6 - Spires of Xin-Shalast.

Ogre Mage · Apr 9, 2020

As a player, I think what I enjoy about high level is how it opens up the scope of the campaign. You can travel to the City of Brass and have tense negotiations with the efreet, feast at a banquet in the watery world of the marid, venture to the realms of your cleric's deity for sanctuary and raise hell in The Abyss and come back to tell the tale. That just isn't happening in Tier 1.

Fanaelialae · Apr 9, 2020

dnd4vr said:
See, when I run high-level and epic games, 90% of the encounters are not challenging. Why? Because that isn't how the "world" works. It is one of the things that bugs the heck out of me in a lot of games:

Tier 1 = the world is full of goblins and orcs and ogres, skeletons and zombies, etc.
Tier 2 = now bring on some giants, vampires, and maybe a dragon or two
Tier 3 = the world is now full of greater demons and devils, beholders and liches are everywhere!
Tier 4 = where the heck did all of these ancient dragons, devil lords, and the frickin' Tarrasque come from!? Boy, I am glad we just happened to never run into this stuff in Tier 1!

You get the idea right? I prefer to think of monsters by rarity, not power! My random encounters go by rarity. Yeah, you can be level 1 and encounter something WAY beyond your party. RUN!!! I never design my adventures for the PC's to win, I do it for the players to experience and enjoy!

Thankfully, most really powerful creatures tend to be very rare. But why is it, suddenly, lesser and weaker creatures seem to disappear just because the PCs are more powerful? Sure, I understand the idea that "such easy encounters aren't worth wasting game time on" and so many higher-level adventures gloss over the "obvious wins". But it is great when those other 10% of the encounters take place, and suddenly the players realize this one is gonna make 'em sweat! Also, you'd be surprised how interesting some weaker encounters can turn out when the default strategy to simply kill the opponents is no longer the default--maybe they can actually try something else instead.

It's not any more of an issue than it is at tier 2 or tier 3. If you can handle adventuring past tier 1, you have this skill set. A kobold or two is no challenge to a 5th level party after all (unless perhaps they have a well-prepared series of traps, but that's something else).

Something I do is to include low level encounters for high level characters, when they are in appropriate areas, but I frame them completely differently from when those encounters would have actually been a challenge.

For example, I've described how they noticed they are being stalked by a large pack of ghouls. As the ghouls got closer, they suddenly froze and then retreated, having recognized the PCs and heard of their exploits. Then I asked the players what they wanted to do. I let it play out pretty much however they want, within reason. The ghouls are no real threat to them so there's no reason to play it out as a combat encounter even if the PCs choose to hunt them down.

90% trivial encounters seems awfully high though. Are we including "encounters" with townsfolk and shopkeepers in that percentage?

At tier 4 the PCs ought to be venturing to the most dangerous places on their world and beyond. The island beneath which an elder god was imprisoned, whose foul presence warps the land and all life upon it. Or into the deepest heart of the Abyss, where the most ancient and terrible demons dwell. Or invading an ancient fortress guarded by an entire army of giants.

The kinds of places which ordinary mortals would assume are suicide.

In any case, I was speaking about challenge with respect to encounters that are intended to be challenging, but turn out not to be because the high level PCs have some ability that unexpectedly trivializes it. As opposed to a trivial encounter which is trivial by its nature. They're not at all the same thing. A controlling DM might seed in trivial encounters without getting upset about the ease with which players overcome them, because they intend them to be trivial. They'll still have to learn that at high levels (more so than low) you can't control everything, and that sometimes an encounter that you intended to be challenging will be trivial. And that that's okay.

dave2008 · Apr 9, 2020

dnd4vr said:
Thankfully, most really powerful creatures tend to be very rare. But why is it, suddenly, lesser and weaker creatures seem to disappear just because the PCs are more powerful?

A couple of things here:

There is no need to make the weaker creatures suddenly rare. In fact, they are a good back drop to show how far the PCs have come.
Most adventures assume the PCs are doing something, not just wandering around into random high level encounters. The goals of the PCs, what ever it is, lead to the lairs of more powerful monsters. The lairs of more powerful monsters tend to be a dangerous to less powerful ones, and thus you encounter less weaker monsters. It is pretty logical and "how the world works" from that perspective.

DND_Reborn · Apr 9, 2020

Fanaelialae said:
It's not any more of an issue than it is at tier 2 or tier 3. If you can handle adventuring past tier 1, you have this skill set. A kobold or two is no challenge to a 5th level party after all (unless perhaps they have a well-prepared series of traps, but that's something else).

Something I do is to include low level encounters for high level characters, when they are in appropriate areas, but I frame them completely differently from when those encounters would have actually been a challenge.

For example, I've described how they noticed they are being stalked by a large pack of ghouls. As the ghouls got closer, they suddenly froze and then retreated, having recognized the PCs and heard of their exploits. Then I asked the players what they wanted to do. I let it play out pretty much however they want, within reason. The ghouls are no real threat to them so there's no reason to play it out as a combat encounter even if the PCs choose to hunt them down.

90% trivial encounters seems awfully high though. Are we including "encounters" with townsfolk and shopkeepers in that percentage?

At tier 4 the PCs ought to be venturing to the most dangerous places on their world and beyond. The island beneath which an elder god was imprisoned, whose foul presence warps the land and all life upon it. Or into the deepest heart of the Abyss, where the most ancient and terrible demons dwell. Or invading an ancient fortress guarded by an entire army of giants.

The kinds of places which ordinary mortals would assume are suicide.

In any case, I was speaking about challenge with respect to encounters that are intended to be challenging, but turn out not to be because the high level PCs have some ability that unexpectedly trivializes it. As opposed to a trivial encounter which is trivial by its nature. They're not at all the same thing. A controlling DM might seed in trivial encounters without getting upset about the ease with which players overcome them, because they intend them to be trivial. They'll still have to learn that at high levels (more so than low) you can't control everything, and that sometimes an encounter that you intended to be challenging will be trivial. And that that's okay.

Well, it is more of an issue because while 95% of things are challenge-worthy in Tier 1, it becomes 70% in tier 2, 40% in tier 3, and 10% in tier 4, maybe 1% in epic.

I've run plenty of encounters where a group of ogres see a party and run away, etc. when the see the party is riding phantom horses, has magical lights instead of lanterns, etc. which are obvious signs this might not be a good idea. This is the hand-waving of encounters. Sure, they are there, but let's not waste time on them.

LOL yes, the 90% includes non-combative encounters.

Why should tier 4 be doing such things? I told my group how one time, just for the fun of a solo adventure, I ran a player whose character was an archmage, through the Keep on the Borderlands. As expected, he waltzed through the entire thing with ease. So, in an area with such a superhero, the heroes should have little if anything to do. It is far easier to help folk, get loot, etc. crushing low-level stuff, so why risk life and limb on the big things. Aren't there other tier 4 superheroes to handle it if it a world-ending threat?

I don't know how else to explain it other than for myself, I just find "over-the-top" sort of adventures too far-fetched for fun. I mean, with all the heroes in the world, how the heck did an army of giants ever even get gathered together? Were the current tier 3 and 4 adventures all just asleep at the wheel? If a rift opens and hordes of devils are coming into the world, wouldn't all the heroes in the area band together to stop it? Why is it the party that has to do such things?

As to your point, yeah I completely agree. Actually, when I DM I find it refreshing when a challenging encounter is not so hard for my players, especially if they pulled out something cool or unexpected! Otherwise, if not special happened and I simply misjudged the encounter, it is a learning experience in balancing encounters vs. party strength. Such things have never bothered me, personally, but if a DM feels "cheated" because his hard encounter ends up being only easy, then he should re-evaluate his role as DM IMO. It isn't the DM vs the players, after all.

DND_Reborn · Apr 9, 2020

dave2008 said:
A couple of things here:

There is no need to make the weaker creatures suddenly rare. In fact, they are a good back drop to show how far the PCs have come.

Most adventures assume the PCs are doing something, not just wandering around into random high level encounters. The goals of the PCs, what ever it is, lead to the lairs of more powerful monsters. The lairs of more powerful monsters tend to be a dangerous to less powerful ones, and thus you encounter less weaker monsters. It is pretty logical and "how the world works" from that perspective.

1. There is no need. That is my point, but most DMs and adventures do so IME.

2. But, the point is, then nothing (or very little) should be encountered on your way there if the more powerful monsters scared off the weaker. And in some instances that makes sense. In others, maybe the powerful monsters employ the weaker ones and they should be there.

But again IME weaker monsters disappear from the world entirely because DMs hand-wave the encounters away. I used to do it myself. I explained to the players, "Yeah, you still encounter bands of goblins while traveling and such, but either they run away or you defeat them without issue, so I am not bothering with it."

Nowadays, that just bothers me. I know playing time is precious, but I am tired of having encounter after encounter be nothing but CR 5 or higher simply because we are 13th level.

Maybe I am just not explaining it well, but there you go.

TwoSix · Apr 9, 2020

dnd4vr said:
Nowadays, that just bothers me. I know playing time is precious, but I am tired of having encounter after encounter be nothing but CR 5 or higher simply because we are 13th level.

Maybe I am just not explaining it well, but there you go.

I think there's just a fundamental incompatibility between "I want high level heroes facing high level encounters" and "I want the characters to encounter a proper ratio of world-appropriate encounters to increase verisimilitude." I think with gaming time being finite, you simply can't do both. Based on your game aesthetic concerns, you simply prefer the latter option, and that's fine.

I would say, that if you do want to run high-level heroes and maintain your own sense of verisimilitude, simply burn down the campaign setting around the PCs. Crank up an apocalyptic pressure in the background while the heroes are leveling. The place the had goblins and kobolds a year ago (campaign time) has now been massacred by hordes of undead or demons.

Another option is that as the PCs level, they find the real threats (and treasure) are multiversal; the high level heroes from their world have moved onto the planes to fight off diabolic and demonic incursions.

Fanaelialae · Apr 9, 2020

dnd4vr said:
Well, it is more of an issue because while 95% of things are challenge-worthy in Tier 1, it becomes 70% in tier 2, 40% in tier 3, and 10% in tier 4, maybe 1% in epic.

I've run plenty of encounters where a group of ogres see a party and run away, etc. when the see the party is riding phantom horses, has magical lights instead of lanterns, etc. which are obvious signs this might not be a good idea. This is the hand-waving of encounters. Sure, they are there, but let's not waste time on them.

LOL yes, the 90% includes non-combative encounters.

Why should tier 4 be doing such things? I told my group how one time, just for the fun of a solo adventure, I ran a player whose character was an archmage, through the Keep on the Borderlands. As expected, he waltzed through the entire thing with ease. So, in an area with such a superhero, the heroes should have little if anything to do. It is far easier to help folk, get loot, etc. crushing low-level stuff, so why risk life and limb on the big things. Aren't there other tier 4 superheroes to handle it if it a world-ending threat?

I don't know how else to explain it other than for myself, I just find "over-the-top" sort of adventures too far-fetched for fun. I mean, with all the heroes in the world, how the heck did an army of giants ever even get gathered together? Were the current tier 3 and 4 adventures all just asleep at the wheel? If a rift opens and hordes of devils are coming into the world, wouldn't all the heroes in the area band together to stop it? Why is it the party that has to do such things?

As to your point, yeah I completely agree. Actually, when I DM I find it refreshing when a challenging encounter is not so hard for my players, especially if they pulled out something cool or unexpected! Otherwise, if not special happened and I simply misjudged the encounter, it is a learning experience in balancing encounters vs. party strength. Such things have never bothered me, personally, but if a DM feels "cheated" because his hard encounter ends up being only easy, then he should re-evaluate his role as DM IMO. It isn't the DM vs the players, after all.

As I see it, it is not more of an issue just because it might happen more often. If at tier 2 you have a 30% chance of a trivial encounter while at tier 4 you have a 90% chance, you still learned how to manage trivial encounters back in tier 2. It isn't a tier 4 skill.

IMO, hand waving is the correct way to handle trivial encounters. I'm sure as heck not going to waste everyone's time on a combat encounter that will take longer to set up than play out. That would be incredibly boring IMO. I'd quit any campaign in which that amounted to 9 out of 10 encounters.

As for why the PCs are the ones to deal with a threat, it is very simple in my games. I heavily limit the number of heroes/adventurers in my campaigns. There are powerful NPCs out there, but they're allies of the PCs (meaning they're likely doing what they can to help), enemies of the PCs (meaning they're likely to be behind whatever is happening), or utterly involved in their own motivations (meaning they're unlikely to get involved unless they believe they have no other choice). The PCs are the ones that need to deal with it because there's no one else who can and will do it. Or they can choose to not deal with it and accept the consequences instead (that's always an option in my games).

IMO, tier 4 (and even tier 3 to a large extent) is about being "over the top". Not leaning into this kind of misses the point. A fighter who can stand against a legion and a wizard who can reshape reality shouldn't still clearing rats out of basements for copper pieces, if you follow my meaning.

While I just expressed that controlling DMs need to learn to relax and allow things to be trivialized, I think that not trying to challenge high level PCs also misses the point.

Reynard · Apr 9, 2020

The one thing I wonder about is how to make sure the BBEG encounters are not full nova all the time. How do you keep high level characters from always choosing the time and the place of the battle, full rested, with an arsenal of options?

TwoSix · Apr 9, 2020

Reynard said:
The one thing I wonder about is how to make sure the BBEG encounters are not full nova all the time. How do you keep high level characters from always choosing the time and the place of the battle, full rested, with an arsenal of options?

How are the PCs going to do that? The only real way to get to a bad guy is to sneak in an object to where the enemy is and then teleport there. Teleporting in blind is a great way to die. The mishap odds are extremely high in 5e, and with Teleport being a 7th level spell, it's not like you can just cast it again.

D&D 5E Running High Level 5E is more fun than I thought it would be.

S'mon

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Ogre Mage

Hero

Fanaelialae

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dave2008

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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer

Fanaelialae

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Reynard

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer

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