D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

Remathilis said:

Which is where the "the fighter must be supernatural" comes from. You could have the fighter raise his strength and constitution to 30 and you're still going to have people complain it doesn't compare to a wizard's versatility. So if people are serious about "fixing" the problem, give them mythical abilities but explicitly say they are mythical. Then you can hurl boulders, jump mountains and make goblins pee their pants by gaze. But the problem is people still want fighters to do these things but represent Boromir or other nonmythical heroes. They don't want super soldiers or demigods or anything explicitly supernatural BUT they still want fighters to compete with the Masters of the Supernatural in spellcasters. They somehow want Drax and Hawkeye with the same power and versatility as Dr Strange. I'm sorry, I'll buy that Thor is an equal because he's a god or Captain Marvel because she's part Kree, but not "...and I have a bow and arrow" Hawkeye.

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Part of this is also a misunderstanding of the narrative of casters.

People will look at a 20th level wizard and go "yeah that's Gandalf".....but as has been noted in other threads that Gandalf is really more like a 5th level wizard. 20th level wizards are an entirely different narrative animal, moving about the planes as they please, alter reality to suit their whims, etc. That's something WAY WAY WAY more powerful than Gandalf, probably more a Dr Strange.

So we have players going "I want my 20th level fighter to play like Boromir" but we don't have players going "I want my 20th level wizard to play like Gandalf"..

Stalker0 said:

There is a mechanical problem here though. With magic there is a explicit limit to what you can do in the form of spell slots. With skill checks there is not.

Say the PCs find themselves on a battlefield of recently wounded and dead soliders. The cleric could raise 1, maybe 2 of them.....but using the note above, the rogue can raise 100.

The "mundane" has the power of being "at-will", and that cannot be ignored.

That's why I don't mind fighters being weaker than casters....to a point. Because sure if you can nova and do this amazing thing....but its once a day, that is still balanced against a lesser thing I can do all day every day. Its just right now the gap between those things is too wide.

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I don't mean this in a way that targets you specifically, but there's been three separate instances where people have taken words out my mouth and argued against them as if I actually said them.

For this reply specifically, I never said the rogue used a skill check. I can see the confusion since I specifically said "medicine" but I didn't mean to say that it was the skill check medicine. I can place the blame on myself for that one. I was actually thinking about an imaginary feature. And it could be something they can do only once per day but I wasn't addressing it like it was a real situation, just an absurd (from my POV) hypothetical.

Asisreo said:

I don't mean this in a way that targets you specifically, but there's been three separate instances where people have taken words out my mouth and argued against them as if I actually said them.

For this reply specifically, I never said the rogue used a skill check. I can see the confusion since I specifically said "medicine" but I didn't mean to say that it was the skill check medicine. I can place the blame on myself for that one. I was actually thinking about an imaginary feature. And it could be something they can do only once per day but I wasn't addressing it like it was a real situation, just an absurd (from my POV) hypothetical.

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Fair enough, though I think my point can be utilized more generally outside of your specific example.

It is something people have to remember, as soon as you give an ability through a skill check or a mundane narrative, the fact that its now at-will can be a problem. Likewise if a "mundane" ability is limited, that can cause narrative issues as well. Why can the rogue only do this amazing thing 1/day? I can understand certain fatiguing abilities it makes sense for, but if they are good at surgury....why can't they just keep doing surgury?

Those are some of the narrative problems to consider when thinking about these abilities.

Asisreo said:

On what authority do you have to tell what other people will find interesting and fun?

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I am desperately searching for where I said that, but I did pull the sword of Nerdom from the Stone of 'But That's Just Your Opinion', so I expect you all to kneel.

Neonchameleon said:

The fighter's origins are "They live in a world where magic is real and 20th level characters are possible." My line is if you don't want high level fighters in your game hard cap fighter levels at 10 or 11. If it makes you feel better when allowing high level fighters put some line in the game about how "all bodies absorb magic, especially in high magic environments. This physically empowers non-casters more than casters who don't let the magic settle so much."

And then, once you've done that where's the problem.

If you want your wizards casting magic almost all the time stop pretending that they fit Lord of the Rings. The wizards of Middle Earth were for practical purposes angels. So if we've got Faramir and a 5e wizard in the party one or both of them has wandered into the wrong subgenre.

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Stalker0 said:

Part of this is also a misunderstanding of the narrative of casters.

People will look at a 20th level wizard and go "yeah that's Gandalf".....but as has been noted in other threads that Gandalf is really more like a 5th level wizard. 20th level wizards are an entirely different narrative animal, moving about the planes as they please, alter reality to suit their whims, etc. That's something WAY WAY WAY more powerful than Gandalf, probably more a Dr Strange.

So we have players going "I want my 20th level fighter to play like Boromir" but we don't have players going "I want my 20th level wizard to play like Gandalf"..

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I mean, I'm not disagreeing except to say if a fighter is going to exceed mortal limitations, they need a better reason than: I killed a bunch of monsters and now I'm 20th level. Bardic music is powered by the Music of Creation. Barbarian rage is fueled by Primal energy. Monks use ki/spirit to do all sorts of impossible things. Give me that and you can have fighters do whatever bullocks you want. Have him fly and shoot lightning from his fingers. But tell me it's because he's tapped into the ancient power of the Asgardians narratively, not just because he gained 355,000 XP.

Remathilis said:

I mean, I'm not disagreeing except to say if a fighter is going to exceed mortal limitations, they need a better reason than: I killed a bunch of monsters and now I'm 20th level. Bardic music is powered by the Music of Creation. Barbarian rage is fueled by Primal energy. Monks use ki/spirit to do all sorts of impossible things. Give me that and you can have fighters do whatever bullocks you want. Have him fly and shoot lightning from his fingers. But tell me it's because he's tapped into the ancient power of the Asgardians narratively, not just because he gained 355,000 XP.

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Then give me what XP actually means. If you want to straightjacket everyone else into jumping through your hoops then perhaps you'll tell me how hit points work, how you get XP from killing monsters, and why magic works. You're asking for a higher bar for fighters than you are for anyone else.

And the "Music of Creation" isn't something hard coded into 5e. It's mentioned, but it's never said that that's how bards get their power. So why is it only fighters you are treating in such a gamebreaking way?

For comparison if one bard wants to use the Weave and another Music of Creation, and a third to use the language of the gods that is fine. If one barbarian wants to channel primal spirits and another that they are just berserkers that's fine. Why must you have a One Size Fits All approach? And why must everyone else follow your One Size Fits All approach when the only class I can think of that comes close to doing so other than the fighter is the wizard?

Remathilis said:

I mean, I'm not disagreeing except to say if a fighter is going to exceed mortal limitations, they need a better reason than: I killed a bunch of monsters and now I'm 20th level.

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Neonchameleon said:

Then give me what XP actually means. If you want to straightjacket everyone else into jumping through your hoops then perhaps you'll tell me how hit points work, how you get XP from killing monsters, and why magic works. You're asking for a higher bar for fighters than you are for anyone else.

And the "Music of Creation" isn't something hard coded into 5e. It's mentioned, but it's never said that that's how bards get their power. So why is it only fighters you are treating in such a gamebreaking way?

For comparison if one bard wants to use the Weave and another Music of Creation, and a third to use the language of the gods that is fine. If one barbarian wants to channel primal spirits and another that they are just berserkers that's fine. Why must you have a One Size Fits All approach? And why must everyone else follow your One Size Fits All approach when the only class I can think of that comes close to doing so other than the fighter is the wizard?

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Explain why Boromir can kill enough goblins to learn how to throw a mountain and we'll talk.

I'm asking for a narrative reason why a person who starts out as a normal person can do godlike things in the fiction. Ki. Primal spirits. Divine blessing, Music of Creation, Otherworldly patrons, Psionics. Magical bloodlines. Spells. Every class has a narrative excuse to do amazing things. Except for the fighter and rogue. They are stuck with mundane origins and mundane abilities. I am perfectly fine with accepting supernatural origins and supernatural abilities, but I am not accepting mundane origins and supernatural abilities.

And so far, I've heard no fictional reason except "I'm high level, I should be able to do what a wizard can do." Give me more and you get my vote.

Neonchameleon said:

Then give me what XP actually means.

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I'm pretty sure they're green orbs that exit the body of slain creatures. It can be used to enchant items.

The base Fighter class should not be "magical" at its core because they don't need to be magical to kick ass at high levels. The non-magic-preferring players need to have at least some non-magical options (but they only get Fighter and Rogue). And it's easier for that to be core, and be able to offer magical options on top of that.

The complaint I'm seeing is that it isn't fair that spellcasters can manipulate reality and fighters can't. You're right. They can't. Mythic abilities like plowing through, or jumping over mountains without magic, or stealing the color of a person's eyes, is overtly magical. Might I remind folks that the "Thief of Legend" epic destiny in 4E, which was the most relevant design that allowed a rogue to steal a person's "qualities" like memory or eye-color or ability to steal, was Epic, Supernatural, and an option on the L.21-30 Epic side of things where supernatural was normal.

Subclasses, Feats, and Alternate class abilities, and Epic Destinies can still offer supernatural and magical options to opt into, like the Rune Knight, which is AWESOME. I agree that there could be a magical fighting class that can bring the anime/superhero maneuvers, and I hope that they make one some day, from the ground up, with lots of options. But it doesn't have to be the existing base Fighter or Rogue.

My home campaign world recognizes that magic is real, and that the Material Plane is just one step along the soul's journey, and heroes and villains strive to make their biggest impact in the world while they are alive so their souls are rewarded with power in the afterlife. But there are people in the world that don't buy into it, don't want to be puppets to some arcane or divine experiment. They just want to be the best they can be without magic, and I think those options need to exist. And they do. And those Fighters and Rogues KICK ASS at what they do. And they do so alongside magical options within those same classes.