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D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

Considering how the sorcerer's various tactics revolve around his opponents never getting a turn

Hence my earlier comparison to Pun-Pun. It's a build that relies on some pretty sketchy interpretations of the rules, particularly how stealth works. Without the sketchy interpretations to exploit, it wasn't anything special, and the battle largely came down to who chose the best spell to cast, given the evolving situation (which is how it's supposed to work).

There are plenty of legitimately powerful exploits, like a Bard or Sorc 2-dipping Warlock to have a punishing at-will attack combined with a large reserve of typical spells, Force Cage shenanigans, and the ol' "stack buffs on the Barbarian, throw him in a room, and run away" maneuver, but these are, for the most part, pretty straightforward and do not make anyone feel particularly clever.

BTW, I ban 2-dipping Warlock at my table. Just how it is.
 

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prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
Supporter
Hence my earlier comparison to Pun-Pun. It's a build that relies on some pretty sketchy interpretations of the rules, particularly how stealth works. Without the sketchy interpretations to exploit, it wasn't anything special, and the battle largely came down to who chose the best spell to cast, given the evolving situation (which is how it's supposed to work).

There are plenty of legitimately powerful exploits, like a Bard or Sorc 2-dipping Warlock to have a punishing at-will attack combined with a large reserve of typical spells, Force Cage shenanigans, and the ol' "stack buffs on the Barbarian, throw him in a room, and run away" maneuver, but these are, for the most part, pretty straightforward and do not make anyone feel particularly clever.

BTW, I ban 2-dipping Warlock at my table. Just how it is.
I agree. I haven't had anyone try to 2-dip warlock in either of the games I'm DMing, so I haven't had to do anything about it--the multiclassing that's happened has honestly been about in-character stuff: the wizard took a level of knowledge cleric because she wants to know everything; the monk took a level of wizard because he wanted ritual casting; the rogue took levels of ranger because the Horizon Walker subclass fit the character's outlook; the ranger took levels of cleric because she had a near-death experience.

Watching him freak out when the rules don't work the way he hopes they do is ... fun, for a while. I'm not always a nice person.
 

I agree. I haven't had anyone try to 2-dip warlock in either of the games I'm DMing, so I haven't had to do anything about it--the multiclassing that's happened has honestly been about in-character stuff: the wizard took a level of knowledge cleric because she wants to know everything; the monk took a level of wizard because he wanted ritual casting; the rogue took levels of ranger because the Horizon Walker subclass fit the character's outlook; the ranger took levels of cleric because she had a near-death experience.

Watching him freak out when the rules don't work the way he hopes they do is ... fun, for a while. I'm not always a nice person.

It's not so much a god-tier build more so than it violates the principle that multiclassing should sacrifice power for versatility; it's pretty much a flat upgrade in raw power. Getting a Fighter-tier main attack, light armor proficiency, and two rechargeable spell slots is a huge gain in exchange for two levels' worth of spell slots. With the Sorc or Bard, you end up with a Warlock who effectively craps out Fireballs and high-powered Eldritch Blasts at will. With the Paladin, you have a Paladin who uses CHA for his weapon attacks and has a very powerful ranged attack in exchange for a couple smites. EB should have been a class feature, not a cantrip.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
Supporter
It's not so much a god-tier build more so than it violates the principle that multiclassing should sacrifice power for versatility; it's pretty much a flat upgrade in raw power. Getting a Fighter-tier main attack, light armor proficiency, and two rechargeable spell slots is a huge gain in exchange for two levels' worth of spell slots. With the Sorc or Bard, you end up with a Warlock who effectively craps out Fireballs and high-powered Eldritch Blasts at will. With the Paladin, you have a Paladin who uses CHA for his weapon attacks and has a very powerful ranged attack in exchange for a couple smites. EB should have been a class feature, not a cantrip.
I guess it depends on why, and how minimally they're dipping. Like, if someone wanted to non-dip Paladin Oath of the Ancients and Feylock (Pact of the Chain)--and had an in-character narrative reason for it--I'd probably allow it, at least provisionally (and yes, that's a character concept I have). I mean, even non-dipping you're probably breaking the classes up based on features or ASIs, which doesn't seem to be as much of a problem.

I don't particularly disagree about Eldritch Blast needing to have been a feature, FWIW. I feel the same way about Hunter's Mark for rangers.
 

Shadowedeyes

Explorer
Well, it seems stuff happened after I went to bed last night. Ultimately not terribly surprising. I think the original poster had a few interesting ideas, but for the most part a lot of the supposed power of the "ultimate" sorcerer relied on questionable rules interpretations and to be fair, Wish, which doesn't say much about the sorcerer as much as that particular spell.
 

Galandris

Foggy Bottom Campaign Setting Fan
It's not so much a god-tier build more so than it violates the principle that multiclassing should sacrifice power for versatility; it's pretty much a flat upgrade in raw power. Getting a Fighter-tier main attack, light armor proficiency, and two rechargeable spell slots is a huge gain in exchange for two levels' worth of spell slots. With the Sorc or Bard, you end up with a Warlock who effectively craps out Fireballs and high-powered Eldritch Blasts at will. With the Paladin, you have a Paladin who uses CHA for his weapon attacks and has a very powerful ranged attack in exchange for a couple smites. EB should have been a class feature, not a cantrip.

Sure. But at least you're sacrificing your capstone power. I know that nearly no campaign last enough for the capstone to be meaningful. But right from the PHB you have the worst offender: spell sniper feat, which grants the ability to get eldritch blast using your spellcasting ability, double its range and ignore cover.

I had one player making a dip as Warlock 2 in a campaign that started at level 3. He was so intrigued with the story about his mysterious patron (that was, I decided, a major power in the campaign) that he ended up thematically taking most levels in warlock thereafter.
 

Sure. But at least you're sacrificing your capstone power. I know that nearly no campaign last enough for the capstone to be meaningful. But right from the PHB you have the worst offender: spell sniper feat, which grants the ability to get eldritch blast using your spellcasting ability, double its range and ignore cover.

I mean, you're sacrificing whatever it is you get at that level, right? The Sorlock in one campaign was Sorc12/War2, so he'd given up his 7th level slot...so he'd given up the chance to cast Finger of Death or whatever once per day to be able to spew out 6d10+6d6+24 damage at will + 60' push. Because, see, with all those Sorcerer slots, he never really runs out of sorcerery points to keep quickening Eldritch Blast. After all, EB is a cantrip, so it doesn't fall under the restriction for bonus action spells!

It was just stupid. There was another true warlock in the party, but he was completely outclassed by the Sorlock. With the Paladin 2-dip, you're using the 2 levels of warlock to nullify the two main weakness of what is a very strong the class: MAD and melee limitations. You can now just max CHA & CON, plus make sure you have 14 DEX to get the most out of medium armor, and you're unstoppable. Your smite power isn't even really reduced much, since you have two L1 slots that recharge on a short rest. Like you even need them, since you Hexed Eldritch Blast the crap out of everything before it gets close.
 

Shadowedeyes

Explorer
Yah, the two level warlock dip in the end doesn't give up much, but during play it will at times miss out at certain levels compared to a single classed character. Spell Sniper can grab it without the dip, but without Agonizing Blast it's only a bit better than Fire Bolt.
 


Whoa! How did you get to act? No hostile act was taken against you. You aren't in combat. You don't roll initiative.
He has a simple solution to everything like that: first he tries an intimidation check against the DM to let him do whatever he wants. With magical guidance, and skill empowerment, and guidance from his pet Drow Matron Mother, and x, y, and z other abilities he has to succeed. The power is so Ultimate!
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
He has a simple solution to everything like that: first he tries an intimidation check against the DM to let him do whatever he wants. With magical guidance, and skill empowerment, and guidance from his pet Drow Matron Mother, and x, y, and z other abilities he has to succeed. The power is so Ultimate!
Add in attempts to cast confusion on anyone trying to read his posts who is trying to actually understand what he's saying followed by derision and laughter along with the claims of winning. So much winning.

Wait a minute ... I may know who they really are ...

download (6).jpg
 

I think my biggest issue with the thread was, it was not about playing D&D in any meaningful way. It was simply about how very specific builds would be successful the majority of time given a very specific set of circumstance. I mean, would any of his builds been any more or less effective than any other class build over two years of play from 1st to 20th level?
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
Supporter
I think my biggest issue with the thread was, it was not about playing D&D in any meaningful way. It was simply about how very specific builds would be successful the majority of time given a very specific set of circumstance. I mean, would any of his builds been any more or less effective than any other class build over two years of play from 1st to 20th level?
You have a point. There's a real chance that at a real table with real players and a real DM, he would find his characters less effective (at least sometimes) than other party members. Presuming, of course, that his behavior didn't get him kicked out of the table or something (which is a helluva presumption).
 

You have a point. There's a real chance that at a real table with real players and a real DM, he would find his characters less effective (at least sometimes) than other party members. Presuming, of course, that his behavior didn't get him kicked out of the table or something (which is a helluva presumption).
I also don't think he understood the real scale of being 650 feet in the air, at that height, I could put a dummy in the middle of the road, I would not even bother buying a wizards hat for it and he would not be able to tell the difference at that altitude. His entire strategy could be ruined by simply walking 5 feet inside the wood line instead of walking on the road. Don't even get me started on how an Illusionist could screw with him using only low level illusions. Please by all means burn up your spell slots dispelling shadowy figures created by my Minor Illusion cantrips.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
Supporter
I also don't think he understood the real scale of being 650 feet in the air, at that height, I could put a dummy in the middle of the road, I would not even bother buying a wizards hat for it and he would not be able to tell the difference at that altitude. His entire strategy could be ruined by simply walking 5 feet inside the wood line instead of walking on the road. Don't even get me started on how an Illusionist could screw with him using only low level illusions. Please by all means burn up your spell slots dispelling shadowy figures created by my Minor Illusion cantrips.
I'm not arguing the realism of it, but the game gives longbows a range of 600 feet, and someone with the sharpshooter feat can shoot someone through a window at that range.

I agree that watching him find a wizard's sanctum (run by a fair DM) would be ... amusing. I mean, I presume it'd Mirage Arcane on it and the surrounding area, which there is no check to discern (as I read the rules). Only way is Truesight.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Whoa! How did you get to act? No hostile act was taken against you. You aren't in combat. You don't roll initiative.
That player was Moderator-evicted from the thread a few pages back.
He cannot explain (even if he had an explanation).
 

Galandris

Foggy Bottom Campaign Setting Fan
I also don't think he understood the real scale of being 650 feet in the air, at that height, I could put a dummy in the middle of the road, I would not even bother buying a wizards hat for it and he would not be able to tell the difference at that altitude. His entire strategy could be ruined by simply walking 5 feet inside the wood line instead of walking on the road. Don't even get me started on how an Illusionist could screw with him using only low level illusions. Please by all means burn up your spell slots dispelling shadowy figures created by my Minor Illusion cantrips.

That's roughly what happened (or was rolled back at some point, I dunno). One of the Yuan-ti cast a save-or-die spell, which he countered by a suprisingly convenient counterspell upcast at 9th level, guaranteeing an automatic success [he knew, I guess, that action economy in the dice shenanigans would play in his defavour]. That was surprisingly convenient, but a speedbumb since his forces were split. So I informed the DM through PM that the next spell to be cast was crown of madness when he got to rewind time back to the first round to take an action to dispell crown of madness on himself. Then he wasted his 9th level slot of dispelling Crown of Madness, a wizard's at-will spell.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
Supporter
That's roughly what happened (or was rolled back at some point, I dunno). One of the Yuan-ti cast a save-or-die spell, which he countered by a suprisingly convenient counterspell upcast at 9th level, guaranteeing an automatic success [he knew, I guess, that action economy in the dice shenanigans would play in his defavour]. That was surprisingly convenient, but a speedbumb since his forces were split. So I informed the DM through PM that the next spell to be cast was crown of madness when he got to rewind time back to the first round to take an action to dispell crown of madness on himself. Then he wasted his 9th level slot of dispelling Crown of Madness, a wizard's at-will spell.
I noticed that, going back and re-reading the thread. He seemed ... baffled. Which seems likely to be his default state in an actual game, when he isn't throwing a tanty because the rules aren't what he wants them to be.

It's like, in the quick demonstration of how parties take down spellcasters, when he tried to dominate the rogue/ranger in the stripped-down version of the 14th-level party I'm DMing for. He plausibly had tactics available to him that at least would have guaranteed that he'd get a second turn (distant fireball--possibly upcast--from stealth, then move; maybe dim door occasionally instead of attacking in future turns) but he was so intent on turning the party against itself--and so unaware of how the rules actually work--that he let the paladin on the pegasus get to move-and-dash range, then stopped concentrating on a stealth spell.

The fact that, if I'd described the party's appearances to him, I think it's 50-50 whether he'd have correctly identified which PC was the rogue/ranger, isn't super-important.
 


It's like, in the quick demonstration of how parties take down spellcasters, when he tried to dominate the rogue/ranger in the stripped-down version of the 14th-level party I'm DMing for. He plausibly had tactics available to him that at least would have guaranteed that he'd get a second turn (distant fireball--possibly upcast--from stealth, then move; maybe dim door occasionally instead of attacking in future turns) but he was so intent on turning the party against itself--and so unaware of how the rules actually work--that he let the paladin on the pegasus get to move-and-dash range, then stopped concentrating on a stealth spell.

Most of this seemed to stem from having a Rule of Cool DM who decided that if you're using psychic effects cast from stealth, enemies don't even get to roll initiative, because they're not aware at all that they're under attack. This gave him an incredibly exaggerated understanding of how powerful stealth is.
 

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