[3.5] Damage Reduction & Andy Collins

[BryonD]

---Skipping the far tangent quibbles over gear, using the DMG tables easily supports my gear allocation, but who cares.---

But my entire point is that you cannot assume that anymore!

Again you missed the point.

You ABSOLUTELY can assume that when you are assigning a CR.

Now, only when a specific DM throws a specific monster at a specific party does the uncertainty appear. A given monster may have a lower CR because it can not deal with flying opponents or because it has a low Will save. You can not assume that a party will be able to exploit a poor Will save. But you should assume that they might when you assign CR. Including that assumption does not make the CR wrong. And excluding it would likely make the CR wrong.

It is the DM's responsibility to consider that a party without the ability to exploit a low Will save will find that creature more challenging.

Exact same applies for the new DR.

Heck, if you use this logic for the old system, the CRs are WAY off. Or did you simply assume a 100% chance that DR would be ignored under 3E?

You're the dead one. You are the one who seems the think CR is useless as is. Not starting from that viewpoint, it is an issue for me.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

All I said was that the factors which add to to a CR for a monster are widely varied. This is already ture under 3E. If you claim that one actually CAN grab a random CR = average party level monster and have it work consistently, then you are in a quite small minority.

Expecting the DM to realize that one CR11 monster may be weaker against party A while a CR8 party may be stronger against that same party is quite fair.

If you use CR as the ballpark tool that it very effectively serves as, you will be in good shape. If you try to make it be a reliable replacement for DM judgement, then you will have real troubles.

They said that the design philosophy of 3.5 was "do no harm." If they made an existing problem worse, harm has obviously been done.

Before: take into account the factors that make this CR when facing a specific party

After: take into account the factors that make this CR when facing a specific party

No harm done.

 

[Psion]

Again you missed the point.

You ABSOLUTELY can assume that when you are assigning a CR.

I don't see how I miss this point. I just missed it's relevance. Sure, you can say "this is pretty powerful - let's give this creature CR X"

But my point is that the effect of DR on actual challenge is much more seredipitous than it was before.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

Did you not say I was already dead because I already couldn't use CR before?

If you use CR as the ballpark tool that it very effectively serves as, you will be in good shape. If you try to make it be a reliable replacement for DM judgement, then you will have real troubles.

Oh, I agree, and have said words to those exact effects before.

But the problem is that I find that adding random special materials and enchantments makes it even more serendipitous and will require even more scrutiny against the party's abilities. I could tell you from play experience with the party if the wizard has fly or whether he has will save targeting effects like hold monster. Those details are apparent. One thing I rarely bother tracking, though, is whether the fighter packs a silver dagger or mace as backup.

These rules were added for flavor effects, but the flavor effect is more a hassle than a benefit if you weren't centering your plot around the achilles heel of the creature.

So, in short, I can see using the rule for a central threat in a game, but sprinkling such DRs through the book sounds like trouble.

Before: take into account the factors that make this CR when facing a specific party

After: take into account the factors that make this CR when facing a specific party

No harm done.

More like:
Before: Take into account the typical spells used by the party wizard and items given out to the party.

After: Will have to consider the entire inventory of the party and/or consider throwing in extra enounters (and attendant play time which is a sideline to the intended plot) to make sure that they know the jabberwock is weak against adamantium.

Harm is done.

 

[BryonD]

But my point is that the effect of DR on actual challenge is much more seredipitous than it was before.

Fine. It adds to the list. I know that as a DM *I* won't find this addition to be a concern. Considering the creature as a whole has always been the issue.

Did you not say I was already dead because I already couldn't use CR before?

IF you wanted to use it as a replacement for DM judgement. You then took the radical step to claim that meant I thought CR was "useless". A far cry from what I did say, and, IMO, a poor attempt to neutralize a point by distorting it beyond recognition.

These rules were added for flavor effects, but the flavor effect is more a hassle than a benefit if you weren't centering your plot around the achilles heel of the creature

This is not what I have heard WotC folks say. The main point was that 3E DR was mechanically non-existent. You either overcame (ignored) it or avoided the encounter. Now an improvement to the mechanic is offered to make DR be part of the game in a less boolean manner.

As a side effect, the new system does provide a lot of additional flavor.

If you really think that flavor drove this, then our argument is moot.

More like:
Before: Take into account the typical spells used by the party wizard and items given out to the party.

After: Will have to consider the entire inventory of the party and/or consider throwing in extra enounters (and attendant play time which is a sideline to the intended plot) to make sure that they know the jabberwock is weak against adamantium.

Harm is done.

I'm sorry but that over-reaction is boggling.

Do you currently make certain that the party has fire damage before you throw a troll at them?

No harm has been done. Maybe you were on a moderate hill before, but that example turns a patch a grass into Everest.

 

[BryonD]

Psion,

I don't see this heading toward agreement.

I have been using this option in game already. I assure you that it has not created the tiniest ripple of added complication in estimating a fair challenge for my group.

I'm sorry if you think it will make your DMing less rewarding.

I think it is a very good mechanical and flavor change that adds a perceptable value to my game.

I agree with some of your concerns.

But this one has been great.

Good Gaming

Bryon

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't get this fuss.

DR was a joke before. Since a party just ignored DR the vast majority of the time, they weren't being challenged enough by the creature, and have gotten used to never worrying about DR.

Now t hey will be challenged by the DR, they can't ignore it, and they can still cut through it.

Really, this sounds like "I'm used to Haste so you can't touch it."

Let's take a look at steel predators from Lord of the Iron Fortress and Fiend Folio. It's a CR 13 creature with DR 40/+4 and has 102 hp. Was the DR included in the CR calculation or not? I don't know how many 13th-level characters have access to a +4 weapon (sometimes it's a +2 keen flaming burst, right ), and with the change to GMW

IMC it's going to be DR 10/adamantine, at least until I see a Fiend Folio conversion document.

 

[Grog]

I don't get this fuss.

And I don't get the fuss from the people who like the new DR. Why is DR such a sacred cow to some people? 1st edition was fine without it, 2nd edition was fine without it, and 3rd edition was fine without it entering the picture most of the time.

I've been playing D&D in one form or another for around 15 years now, and, as a player or a DM, I never once thought, "If only there were some complicated DR rules, this game would be so much better."

DR was a joke before. Since a party just ignored DR the vast majority of the time, they weren't being challenged enough by the creature, and have gotten used to never worrying about DR.

Monsters weren't enough of a challenge if the PCs could ignore their DR? Are you serious? Are you telling me that an Ancient Blue Dragon wasn't enough of a challenge for a 20th level party because they could bypass its DR? And what about something like an Iron Golem? It was obvious that the designers intended for the party to be able to bypass its DR of 50/+3. There's absolutely no way a 13th level character could do 50 points of damage in one hit to a creature that's immune to crits.

Monsters were plenty challenging even with their DR being bypassed.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re

I think the idea that power attack changes mitigate the damage done by the DR changes is a misconception: the changes to power attack only help two handed weapon fighters.

Weapon and shield fighters gain no benefit from the change unless they drop their shield and start wielding their weapon two-handed. And that is, at best a very mixed benefit.

And fighters using light weapons are actually worse off--the twin shortsword fighter can no longer use power attack, and thus is likely not even to have the power attack feat. When he comes up against DR, he's hooped if he doesn't have the appropriate weapon.

And, while CR is only one factor in EL (the important number for determining whether or not a party is outmatched), it is the most significant part of EL. And a situation where the actual EL of an encounter varies by three points depending upon the alignment of the party and their melee specialists' class and fighting style (two handed, sword and board, dual wield) is not a good situation for people publishing modules or using published modules

With the changes to things like Power Attack, I think DR will be mitigated in a variety of different ways. With fighters now doing more damage via power attack, the lower DR balances out. As far as the CR system is concerned, it's so dependent on EL and situational modifiers for every combat, I've never considered it anything more than a ballpark figure anyhow.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't think this prediction meshes well with the kinds of challenges faced at mid to high levels. By that time, as many as 1/3 of the creatures faced--demons, devils, slaadi, dragons, undead, golems, etc--have DR. Examining the kinds of DR they're likely to have:

Demons: Cold iron/good
Devils: Silver/good
Slaad: Lawful
Dragons: ??? (I doubt it's x/magic though since that would be pretty much irrelevant after level 4)
Undead: ??? (see Dragons)
Golems: Adamantine

Adding Inevitables to the list (since they'll be in the 3.5e monster manual, gets Chaotic added to the DR list.

So, looking at that list, there's at least 7 different kinds of DR, only one of which applies to more than one group of creature and only three of which can be combined into one weapon (lawful/chaotic, good, and silver/iron/adamantine)--and a minimum +5 weapon at that.

If those kinds of creatures make up more half of the foes PCs face, non-archers who use a single "primary" weapon will have great difficulty. (See the previous 20th level fighter/Titan comparisons for the reasons Power Attack isn't a magic bullet--at best (and a 20th level greataxe fighter vs. DR/15 is a "best case scenario) it bumps the fighter up to half effectiveness).

No, because unless every foe you throw at them has wildly different kinds of DR, players are still going to have one 'primary' weapon. They're going to use that on most foes, and then when they run into something with a DR that it won't bypass, they'll say "oh poopie" and pull out the silver dagger (or what have you). Some people may not even bother with this, and just crank up the Power Attack instead.

 

[BryonD]

Every edition has had DR.

Just in older editions it was unlimited. Creatures were immune to damage unless the weapon had a high enough PLUS.

I have thought MANY times that, for example, werewolves would be much more cool if you actually needed silver to harm them.

 

[Petrosian]

I gotta say, the arguments are amusing...

The new DR wont be a problem because the new dr wont be used by the Gm when it would cause a problem.

So we capture all this wonderful werewolf flavor by seeing werewolfs only appear when either the pcs already have silver weapons or wont need silver weapons?

Uh huh.

Moreover, the smae issue exists... it wont capture the werewolf flavor because the fighters will just do their thin while the mages blast the werewolf to pieces with non-dr-worried magic missiles.

All that good ole werewolf flavor the new designer dr advocates keep dreaming of was exactly and precisely in stories where if you did not have the special weapon de jour you were screwed. The problem cr encounters being dismissed above were precisely the legendary results... have the key wunda weapon or get to be wolfie lunch.

yetm the new designer dr wont cause more of those because the Gm wont use it to emulate those old stories and legends but rather to restore the flavor?

very interesting!

It wont take a PC 5 minutes of this to go shopping for CYA weapons in the sack to have ready.

In spite of the wishful thinking, he wont keep them all plussed up, but rather will rely on GMW or even MW when needed for the plusses if needed.

The only thing that will change is the one weapon characters will rapidly see the folly of their ways, or the GMs for those characters wont use the new DR.

Either way, just keep plenty of MM stacked mages around and it wont be much of a concern or much of a flavor either.