[3.5] Damage Reduction & Andy Collins

[Grog]

Re: Re: Re: Re

The CR system is for the most part flawed. The higher the level you get the harder it is to judge the CR since it will often depend on variables such as ability to bypass DR or the current condition of the party.

This is one of the major concerns I have about the new DR system. Is the monster's CR going to assume that the party can bypass its DR, or assume that they can't bypass it? Because believe me, that's going to make a difference as to how much of a threat the monster poses, and how much of the party's resources it uses up.

 

[Deadguy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re

Originally posted by Grog
This is one of the major concerns I have about the new DR system. Is the monster's CR going to assume that the party can bypass its DR, or assume that they can't bypass it? Because believe me, that's going to make a difference as to how much of a threat the monster poses, and how much of the party's resources it uses up.

Forgive me, but in what way is that question different to now, i.e. 3.0?

Indeed, the question is slightly easier to answer in 3.5, since the Fighter who lacks the +3 sword to defeat the 20/+3 DR is probably going to be able to do rather less than the 3.5 Fighter overcoming the 10/lawful DR.

In other words, the question has always had to be answered before, it's just a little easier to answer it in 3.5.

 

[Technik4]

High Level Encounters

First a disclaimer: I have not played any epic level games, nor dmed any.

Now, something rubbed me the wrong way earlier this thread. The CR system works as it should under the boundaries of 1-20 levels of play, with some serious issues at the highest levels.

But, it seems like there are some issues. I mean, the biggest difference between a Wiz18 and a Wiz20 is 2 level 9 slots, 1 level 8 slot, and a metamagic feat. Granted that could be a large difference. But, lets say that the Wiz18 has 5,000 extra experience hes willing to spend, along with spending his gold on nasty 1-shot items. He could certainly be a much tougher encounter, especially if he has already used Lesser Planar Ally or the like. Or if he spent a feat on Leadership and the wiz20 didn't.

This all has a point. At high levels I think its difficult for almost any challenge to be "routine". A titan, while having only a 21 CR (I can't believe I just said "only 21 CR") could and should very well present a reasonable threat to a level 24 party. Why?

Because the only difference between a Titan (CR 21) and a 4th level Warrior Titan (CR 24) is some hp and a couple feats (as I said, Im not totally familiar with epic rules, but I believe this is basically correct). Not a whole lot of difference, but they are supposed to challenge 2 different parties. Obviously equipment, allies, and experience to burn plays a large role at epic levels, as a fight can be decidedly more difficult if a monster has a horn of blasting instead of the regular incremently high armor and weapons.

Will a Titan eventually be a speed bump for parties? Probably, but I think at higher levels the numbers start to degrade.

Technik

 

[Grog]

I'm reasonably certain that the CR in 3.0 always assumed the PCs could bypass the DR. I don't think there's any way that even a 13th level party could beat an Iron Golem without being able to bypass its DR.

 

[SidusLupus]

I don't mean to chime in late on a thread, or derail it by anymeans, but I lurk the boards now and then, and I thought I might comment on something that this new DR system rubs me wrong with.

This new DR system seems to me to advocate the use of "golfbags" of weapons, and discourage the use of one primary weapon that is named, and special to the Player.

I always liked the Idea of having one weapon, and using it and upgrading it, naming it and becoming familiar with it, and prefering to use it above all else.

Perhaps it sounds silly that way.

However, with all these new types of DR, doesn't that idea seem to be discouraged?

It always seemed to me that weapons that were special enough to be named were always a bit more powerful than the average weapon of the type, wether magical or not. And now, this is not the case, because you may want to use your named longsword or whatever, but it won't always do you any good, and you won't be able to use it so much.

*shrug* I don't know all the stuff about 3.5 yet, and I guess I should wait and see untill it comes into play.. but that's how I see the matter anyways.

 

[Celtavian]

Re: Re: re

The first 5' moved doesn't provoke the AoO as long as one of the following is also true:

* No further movement is made
* If further movement is made, only movement is performed for the rest of the action.

If the Titan takes 10' of movement, then AoO ensue for those whose threatened squares he occupied at the start of his movement.

No, the first square does not count as threatened and you do not get AOO's if the person moves more than 10 feet after moving from the first square. You are allowed to move without provoking AOO's as long as you do not pass through threatened squares during your movement. The initial square does not count.

pg 122 PHB. "if all you do is move (not run) during your turn, the space that you start out in is not considered threatened, and therefore enemies do not get AOO's against when you move from that space."

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Re: Re: re

Allow me to bold the word you appear to be missing in the quote:

"if all you do is move (not run) during your turn, the space that you start out in is not considered threatened, and therefore enemies do not get AOO's against when you move from that space."

In other words, if you do anything other than move during your turn (the entire turn--not just the MeA or the haste partial or the standard action, but all of it), that entire sentence is irrelevant, the first square does count as threatened and any creatures threatening it get to make AoOs at the retreating character.

No, the first square does not count as threatened and you do not get AOO's if the person moves more than 10 feet after moving from the first square. You are allowed to move without provoking AOO's as long as you do not pass through threatened squares during your movement. The initial square does not count.

pg 122 PHB. "if all you do is move (not run) during your turn, the space that you start out in is not considered threatened, and therefore enemies do not get AOO's against when you move from that space."

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re

The question is different because in 3.0, any cleric or wizard could cast GMW for the +3 enhancement bonus and they all cut through the DR (although some fiends' regeneration caused problems for parties without good clerics or holy water). GMW also increased attack and damage and was a useful spell in its own right.

In 3.5e, it appears that Align Weapon will ONLY be useful for bypassing DR. However, the more significant factor is that: 1. It isn't clear if Align Weapon is available to wizards or only to clerics. 2. Clerics are unable to cast spells with descriptors opposite their alignment. Therefore, it is surmised that a chaotic good cleric would not be able to align the fighter's weapon to lawful. 3. Aligned weapons generally inflict a negative level upon wielders of the opposite alignment. Consequently, chaotic fighters aren't likely to ever have any real lawful weapons. 4. All of this adds up to say that a party full of Chaotic characters may well have no way to overcome the DR/Lawful of a CE Titan or a Slaad and parties full of lawful characters may have no way to overcome the (I'm guessing here) DR/Chaotic of an Inevitable.

Forgive me, but in what way is that question different to now, i.e. 3.0?

Indeed, the question is slightly easier to answer in 3.5, since the Fighter who lacks the +3 sword to defeat the 20/+3 DR is probably going to be able to do rather less than the 3.5 Fighter overcoming the 10/lawful DR.

In other words, the question has always had to be answered before, it's just a little easier to answer it in 3.5.

 

[Celtavian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: re

Allow me to bold the word you appear to be missing in the quote:

"if all you do is move (not run) during your turn, the space that you start out in is not considered threatened, and therefore enemies do not get AOO's against when you move from that space."

In other words, if you do anything other than move during your turn (the entire turn--not just the MeA or the haste partial or the standard action, but all of it), that entire sentence is irrelevant, the first square does count as threatened and any creatures threatening it get to make AoOs at the retreating character.

I stand corrected. It would be two attacks to two attacks. He would have to output more damage than the fighter.

Unbelievable that I have been playing this game for 2 years and have not every applied the rule for AOO's in this manner thought it is perfectly illustrated in the back of the PHB. Probably going to make my players particularly unhappy.

 

[Numion]

However, with all these new types of DR, doesn't that idea seem to be discouraged?

Why, not at all. I'll just have my sword made half-adamantium, half-cold iron and plate it with silver.

No, seriously, I play an archer so I'll just have separate quivers for adamtium-tipped, cold-iron-tipped and silver-tipped arrows. And yes, it will look a bit silly