[3.5] Damage Reduction & Andy Collins

[coyote6]

You also fail to take into account that alignment DR will push people towards alignments that don't limit their ability to kill creatures.

That's an interesting point I hadn't considered. Being plain old neutral might have some perks, depending on how align weapon works.

"Good, bad, lawful, chaotic -- I'm the one with the greatsword."

 

[BryonD]

Why in your analysis do you not account for the damage the Titan will do to the fighter? If you are going to create an analysis that looks at what a single fighter can do to a Titan, then take into account what a single Titan can do against the fighter.

You can even go so far as to incorporate the simple tactic of backing out of the fighters reach each round so that the Titan can gain an extra attack of opportunity, which almost every DM who has any knowledge of tactics will use to give the big monster an advantage.

I don't think everyone should be able to penetrate the DR of a Titan. I do believe that it certainly makes the fight a good deal harder if not one person can penetrate the DR to do subsantial damage.

You also fail to take into account that alignment DR will push people towards alignments that don't limit their ability to kill creatures. I don't like this from a story development standpoint, but you are refusing to see the possibility.

This is a simple number-crunching ballpark exercise. As I said already, throwing in some what-ifs that reduce the degree of deck stacking does not throw the balance.

I'll stand by my claim that assuming 4 fighters is woefully lopsided in favor of the titan. The points you make are valid but I don't think they due any better than to cancel out replacing a fighter with a well built support Cleric 21, and a GSP GSF Wiz21. A L21 the potential assumptions are immense. You can throw ten at me, I'll throw 20 back and you and you'll come up with another 25. They are all just variation around the base number crunch.

 

[taliesin52]

I realise the Titan was an example, however when looking at the higher power creatures (thus many with the really strong DR), people also need to take into account preperation. In few "normal" games will you find the Titan (or pitfiend, etc...) wandering in the forest. You'll likely know that you'll be facing this threat and be able to prepare properly. Spellcasters will likely know (if they're high level as well) the opponent will resist most of their spells and prepare buffs instead, preferably the "align weapon" spell and anything else that may help bypass DR.

As an asside, does anyone know exactly how the listing on monsters bypassing DR is explained? I know the specifics is that a monster with DR/x counts as a weapon of x (or from what we see the opposite of x for alignments).... But since stoneskin gives a DR of x/adamantine would that mean a target of this spell attacking (with probably natural weapons) would count as thus?

Plus we shouldn't discount the likelyhood of new magic weapon enhancements. It didn't take WotC long to come up with the wonderful ability of SureStriking in 3.0, a +1 ability that allowed the weapon to strike as a +5 regardless. What's to keep us from assuming that there will be an ability of "Blended Metal" Which will allow the weapon to strike as any special metal or at least one specific metal. Similarily we could see something that lets the weapon simulate an alignment or two (or to channel the user's alignment)?

Finally, its my hope that they change the alignment DR slightly. A demon/Tana'ri who under the preview would have a DR of X/Good, should be changed to X/Good or Lawful, being the two diametrically opposed alignments. This would solve the BloodWar solution a little. A more complicated solution would be to allow the same alignment I proposed (X/G,L) but require a LG weapon to bypass all DR and any weapon that is G or L to bypass half said DR.

 

[MerricB]

As an asside, does anyone know exactly how the listing on monsters bypassing DR is explained? I know the specifics is that a monster with DR/x counts as a weapon of x (or from what we see the opposite of x for alignments).... But since stoneskin gives a DR of x/adamantine would that mean a target of this spell attacking (with probably natural weapons) would count as thus?

No. In 3.0E it's natural DR only.

Cheers!

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Personally, if they are going to use DR, then use DR. The way I see it right now they are creating an overly complex DR system that does very little but increase the metagame thinking on the part of the players and DM. I am liking it less and less the more I see of it.

Right at the moment, I plan to keep material DR. I'll probably throw out alignment DR. I am also going to get rid of Adamantine DR. Stoneskin will defend against melee attacks period, just like it has in previous editions. Golems are made of strong metal. There is no real reason why Adamantine should be able to bypass their DR. As has been pointed out here numerous times, players and monsters will be able to get some damage past DR in melee combat.

I think a fully equipped level 21 party can beat a Titan whether or not they penetrate the DR. It will simply make the fight longer and possibly require retreat by one side or the other. Those are the types of fights I like anyhow. Long, drawn out, fearsome, deadly, epic fights between powerful beings contending against each other over some epic goal.

 

[Staffan]

As an asside, does anyone know exactly how the listing on monsters bypassing DR is explained? I know the specifics is that a monster with DR/x counts as a weapon of x (or from what we see the opposite of x for alignments).... But since stoneskin gives a DR of x/adamantine would that mean a target of this spell attacking (with probably natural weapons) would count as thus?

I don't know the specifics of 3.5 DR, but I would be surprised if they kept the rule about being able to penetrate your own kind of DR. Given the non-hierarchical nature of 3.5 DR (i.e. adamantine isn't "better" than silver), and the way it has been spelled out in some monster descriptions, it does not make sense.

I second the poster who thought that all/most of the power-outsiders should "instill" their alignment on their own weapons, and have DR that can be penetrated by any opposed alignments (e.g. devils having "DR X/chaotic, good"). Sure, that might cause problems for parties fighting outsiders devoted to only one alignment (e.g. a bunch of elves fighting slaad), but then again the one-alignmenters only have a beef with one of the alignments and shouldn't have to bother much with the other axis.

 

[Bleys]

You can even go so far as to incorporate the simple tactic of backing out of the fighters reach each round so that the Titan can gain an extra attack of opportunity, which almost every DM who has any knowledge of tactics will use to give the big monster an advantage.

Unless I missed something in the Titan's posted statistics, if the fighter is already in melee with the Titan, then the Titan will have to take more than a 5' step to "back out", which would mean that it wouldn't be making a full attack, and it would also provoke an AoO from anyone who is in melee with it.

All in all, not a very sound tactic

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Re

I don't think anyone here doubts that a fully equipped level 21 party can defeat a Titan--even without penetrating the DR. What I (and others) doubt is that it will be the kind of easy, warmup, 20%-of-the-resources fight that the CR system predicts it to be.

Most parties can beat a creature 2 CRs above their average level. In 3e, I've seen first level parties without silver or magic weapons defeat a CR 3 werewolf. 6th level parties have defeated fiendish 7th level clerics. 4th level parties have defeated Ossyluths and troll barbarians. None of that meant that werewolves were CR 1 or Ossyluths or trolls with barbarian levels were CR 4. The CR system predicted a difficult but winnable fight and the parties won after a difficult fight.

A CR 21 Titan should no more be a long drawn out fearsome deadly and epic battle for a level 21 party than a first level orc fighter should be for a first level party. If you want it to be a deadly epic battle, you should be tossing it against an 18th -19th level party instead of a 21st level party. For a 21st level party, the Titan is supposed to be a speed bump.

I think a fully equipped level 21 party can beat a Titan whether or not they penetrate the DR. It will simply make the fight longer and possibly require retreat by one side or the other. Those are the types of fights I like anyhow. Long, drawn out, fearsome, deadly, epic fights between powerful beings contending against each other over some epic goal.

 

[Bleys]

*ahem* Credit where it's due -

Stolen from Tolkien - both the metal itself and the name "truesilver".

J

Well, Rolemaster is originally based off ME, anyway They don't do anything to hide it, and in fact MERP was just a toned down version of RM

 

[BryonD]

Re: Re: Re

I don't think anyone here doubts that a fully equipped level 21 party can defeat a Titan--even without penetrating the DR. What I (and others) doubt is that it will be the kind of easy, warmup, 20%-of-the-resources fight that the CR system predicts it to be.

Elder-Basilisk,

I can agree with that.

I am not saying that CR21 is wrong. But I really don't think anyone can say CR21 is right or wrong.

At level 1 the options tend to be moderately straight forward. At high levels the potential variations are innumerable.

I can see circumstances where a party of L18 characters could easily take this guy. But that would be quite unusual and stacked in their favor. I can see circumstances where a party of L25 characters could be in trouble. Again, unusual.

I think the official definition of CR is overly idealistic. And I have said somewhere before that I actually think that is a fairly good idea. Most D&Ders would rather have a ballpark accurate number they can pull off a table and keep going. I think ENworld is disproportionately represented by people that want more accuracy. Which means we should use the adjust for circumstances rule liberally.

CR21 tells me that WotC think a titan is about right for characters around the edge of epic level. At that point, I expect circumstances to almost always be highly important.