[3.5] Damage Reduction & Andy Collins

[taliesin52]

I second the poster who thought that all/most of the power-outsiders should "instill" their alignment on their own weapons, and have DR that can be penetrated by any opposed alignments (e.g. devils having "DR X/chaotic, good"). Sure, that might cause problems for parties fighting outsiders devoted to only one alignment (e.g. a bunch of elves fighting slaad), but then again the one-alignmenters only have a beef with one of the alignments and shouldn't have to bother much with the other axis.

I had thought about Slaadi. The only fair way I can see this is remove the alignment DR for this specific race and use magic or silver or gold (gold isnt' used enough) instead. For races that are only partially neutral (LN,NG,NE,CN), they can have the single alignment DR (IE., an NG creature would have DR X/Evil) and be tougher than most monsters. They're not going to be overly common, most of the relativly common outsiders (except Modrons) tend towards extremes.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Unless I missed something in the Titan's posted statistics, if the fighter is already in melee with the Titan, then the Titan will have to take more than a 5' step to "back out", which would mean that it wouldn't be making a full attack, and it would also provoke an AoO from anyone who is in melee with it.

All in all, not a very sound tactic

It depends on initiative, but it is a very sound tactic.

If the Titan moves back, the fighter also loses the ability to make a full attack. Thus the Titan will make two attacks at his full attack bonus to the fighters one because they get to make an AOO everytime the fighter closes the distance.

Now, if the fighter counters by going to archery, then the Titan will have to counter. I think the Titan can output more damage with ranged spell attacks than a non-archery specialized fighter, so that is a losing proposition for most fighter types.

If you go so far as to give the Titan the Large and in Charge feat from Sword and Fist said fighter may not be able to close the distance for some time. Reach is a serious advantage and if properly utilized by the DM, it can spell doom for unprepared parties.

Just remember, it is a very sound tactic...

 

[MerricB]

Why am I getting the idea that investing in a good set of medium armour and the Spring Attack feat chain might be a good idea for our fighter?

Oh, and having a wizard around to cast haste for that extra movement speed...

Cheers!

 

[Celtavian]

Re: Re: Re

I don't think anyone here doubts that a fully equipped level 21 party can defeat a Titan--even without penetrating the DR. What I (and others) doubt is that it will be the kind of easy, warmup, 20%-of-the-resources fight that the CR system predicts it to be.

Most parties can beat a creature 2 CRs above their average level. In 3e, I've seen first level parties without silver or magic weapons defeat a CR 3 werewolf. 6th level parties have defeated fiendish 7th level clerics. 4th level parties have defeated Ossyluths and troll barbarians. None of that meant that werewolves were CR 1 or Ossyluths or trolls with barbarian levels were CR 4. The CR system predicted a difficult but winnable fight and the parties won after a difficult fight.

A CR 21 Titan should no more be a long drawn out fearsome deadly and epic battle for a level 21 party than a first level orc fighter should be for a first level party. If you want it to be a deadly epic battle, you should be tossing it against an 18th -19th level party instead of a 21st level party. For a 21st level party, the Titan is supposed to be a speed bump.

Higher levels are not the same as lower levels. Once you reach lvl 21, almost nothing is a speed bump. It is a whole different level of play.

Personally, I don't think a Titan should ever be a speed bump, save for absurdly high level characters.

The CR system is for the most part flawed. The higher the level you get the harder it is to judge the CR since it will often depend on variables such as ability to bypass DR or the current condition of the party.

I can't say that I will be displeased if they change the xp system in future editions. CR is a little hard to work with at times for just the reasons you listed. Somtimes an encounter is far too easy and sometimes an encounter if far more difficult than it should be due to the CR's of certain creatures not holding up in the real game.

 

[Celtavian]

Why am I getting the idea that investing in a good set of medium armour and the Spring Attack feat chain might be a good idea for our fighter?

Oh, and having a wizard around to cast haste for that extra movement speed...

Cheers!

The new version of Haste won't save you Merric. No extra action, so your move still cuts you down to a single attack. The old Haste would have allowed you to move and full attack, but not anymore. Reach creatures have an even greater advantage due to their reach because of the Haste change. An unforseen benefit to DM's...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: re

It depends on initiative, but it is a very sound tactic.

If the Titan moves back, the fighter also loses the ability to make a full attack. Thus the Titan will make two attacks at his full attack bonus to the fighters one because they get to make an AOO everytime the fighter closes the distance.

This may be a sound tactic against one fighter--possibly against two melee combatants if the Titan has combat reflexes. All fighters threatening the Titan also get an AoOs (at their full attack bonus) against the Titan however so its effectiveness, depends upon several factors:

1. [Only if the Titan deals more damage/hit than his melee opponent] Two Titan attacks at full attack bonus vs. two melee opponent attacks at full attack bonus yields a more favorable damage ratio than 1 Titan full attack vs. 1 melee opponent full attack. This will be true any time the Titan has little trouble hitting with its primary attack but has trouble hitting with its secondary and tertiary attacks and his opponent doesn't have as much trouble with secondary and tertiary attacks.

2. If the titan deals less damage/round than his opponent, and his opponent usually lands at least two blows per full attack action, the Titan is better off backing away. This lowers the overall damage inflicted on each attack and makes the damage he inflicts with his spell like abilities more significant.

3. The titan has some means of stopping his opponent's advance. Large and In Charge or Improved Trip would serve this purpose very well.

4. The Titan needs to use its SLAs and doesn't have enough Concentration to do so reliably on the defensive.

Now, if the fighter counters by going to archery, then the Titan will have to counter. I think the Titan can output more damage with ranged spell attacks than a non-archery specialized fighter, so that is a losing proposition for most fighter types.

A Titan with a reach weapon wouldn't need to counter archery with SLAs. Simply moving until the archer was 15 feet away from him would suffice to grant him an AoO on the archer--whether or not the archer took a 5' step. Without a reach weapon, the Titan would need to close to 10 feet in order to prevent the 5' step. . . and in that case, the fighter could quickdraw a melee weapon and full attack. (Or, better yet, the Titan could move to that position AND use spell like abilities--which are probably better than a standard attack--Gate in particular offers some nasty possibilities in conjunction with the Titan's size and strength advantage for bull rushing).

 

[Celtavian]

re

EB,

Multiple fighters may obtain AOO's depending on how they are able to position. The Titan can move without provoking an AOO because the first 5' moved doesn't provoke an AOO, and after that move, the Titan will be out of the reach of most fighters.

Yep, reach is a definite advantage and can make fighting large creatures a nightmare.

 

[Bleys]

Re: re

EB,

Multiple fighters may obtain AOO's depending on how they are able to position. The Titan can move without provoking an AOO because the first 5' moved doesn't provoke an AOO, and after that move, the Titan will be out of the reach of most fighters.

Yep, reach is a definite advantage and can make fighting large creatures a nightmare.

The first 5' moved doesn't provoke the AoO as long as one of the following is also true:

* No further movement is made
* If further movement is made, only movement is performed for the rest of the action.

If the Titan takes 10' of movement, then AoO ensue for those whose threatened squares he occupied at the start of his movement.

 

[MerricB]

The new version of Haste won't save you Merric. No extra action, so your move still cuts you down to a single attack. The old Haste would have allowed you to move and full attack, but not anymore. Reach creatures have an even greater advantage due to their reach because of the Haste change. An unforseen benefit to DM's...

I know - I'm just talking about the extra movement speed it gives.

Cheers!

 

[The Blue Elf]

Don't expect "holy" damage reduction, would be my guess.

You have "lawful", "good", "chaotic" and "good" as the aligned types.

You have "magic" and "epic" as the magical types.

You have "silver", "adamantine" and "cold iron" as the material types.

And then there's "blunt" and similar weapon restrictions.

Cheers!

That idea is more like Magic the Garthering card game.