[3.5] Damage Reduction & Andy Collins

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Okay, where does this leave yugoloths, who are canonically mercenaries/interlopers in the blood war.

What about clashes between demons in the abyss. In an environment where one demon cannot hurt another, it seems that the environment would become rather utopian for a plane of chaos and evil...

A DR of 10/anything isn't going to stop a demon. Inflicting permanent damage on a pit fiend was nearly impossible for a demon under 3.0 rules anyway (regeneration), but almost no one complained about that then.

 

[drnuncheon]

What about clashes between demons in the abyss. In an environment where one demon cannot hurt another, it seems that the environment would become rather utopian for a plane of chaos and evil...

I think most demons will be able to do enough raw damage that they can get past the DR.

What it does mean is that fights between demons in the Abyss will be long, drawn out, bloody affairs.

I'm fine with that.

It also gives the devils a good reason to do more of their 'fighting' through politics - why try and hurt someone the hard way when you can reduce them to a worthless nothing?

J

 

[Psion]

Don't forget this 3.0E rule:
"For purposes of harming other creatures with damage reduction, a creature's natural weapons count as weapons of the type that can ignore its own innate damage reduction."

Thus, a demon with DR 5/evil ignores all DR */evil.

Why would a demon have a DR against evil? I thought the concept of the aligned DR was that only pure and holy weapons could harm them, and thus the DRs would be like 5/holy.

I doubt such a rule would be removed.

I am not saying it will be, which is why I included the caveat "unless they were very careful" with such rules. I still have yet to see how they treat this issue.

The thing is, that it is not so simple any more. According to info on DR that has been released, DRs can be "AND" or "OR" cases. A creature might be affected by silver OR holy, or it might be affected only by silver AND holy. But how does this apply to creatures you can affect? Is a creature with silver or holy resistance capable of hitting a silver AND holy creature? This could get complicated.

To me, the golfbag syndrome is a smaller potential problem that the aligned DR thing in particular. It seems like it requires too many considerations to make work sensibly and has too many potential umbrella effects on the campaign to be worthwhile.

 

[Mercule]

So while mithril will still be applicable to weapons (as far as we know), it will not be a special material to break DR.

I've used a system very similar to what's being put into 3.5 since my 1E days. I love it when the +11 vorpal sword of life stealing isn't the Swiss Utility Knife and the badass Fighter has to pull out his silver dagger to do nasty damage to the werewolf. It just makes things more interesting. (And for the record, this is possibly the house rule that has gotten the most support from my players after they've tried it.)

Anyway, I've always said that mithril is a magical element that is related to silver. It's often referred to as "True silver" (stolen from Rolemaster) and acts like silver in all beneficial ways. Also, this was the solution to the problem of solid silver weapons. Normal silver tended to have some problems in durability, but true silver never even tarnished.

I treated adamantine similar in its relation with steel or iron. Anything that required cold-wrought iron (which is to say, shaped without the benefit of heat) could be affected by adamantine. I'm not sure how I'll handle 3.5 having adamantine as a separate DR class. I'll probably ignore it, since adamantine is so expensive on my world.

 

[drnuncheon]

Anyway, I've always said that mithril is a magical element that is related to silver. It's often referred to as "True silver" (stolen from Rolemaster)

*ahem* Credit where it's due -

Stolen from Tolkien - both the metal itself and the name "truesilver".

J

 

[Mercule]

Stolen from Tolkien - both the metal itself and the name "truesilver".

Quite.

That was my assumption, but I was unsure. It was the list of materials in RM that really stuck, so that's what I cited.

 

[coyote6]

I actually see this as a good thing. Some groups forget that there are times they should run away -- particularly higher level ones. Those are the encounters that encourage tactics other than frontal assaults.

It defeats the purpose of the CR system, though, if a CR X threat is so dangerous that level X parties should run away. CR is supposed to be set up so that a level X party should be able to handle a single CR X threat while using 20-25% of its resources. Ergo, violence is supposed to be a valid option for equal CR/EL.

(Note that I'm not saying the titan doesn't meet that criteria; nor am I saying that it does. I'm making a general point that, if the party is the right level and everything else is normal [not injured, etc.], they shouldn't have to run away from a regular titan.)

 

[coyote6]

Don't forget this 3.0E rule:
"For purposes of harming other creatures with damage reduction, a creature's natural weapons count as weapons of the type that can ignore its own innate damage reduction."

Thus, a demon with DR 5/evil ignores all DR */evil.

I doubt such a rule would be removed. (If it has been, it'll be house-ruled back in!) It is possible it has been extended to the non-natural weapons they use as well, though I am not sure of the likelihood of that.

You may (or may not) want to get your house ruler ready. Witness these quotes from various WotC spotlights.

The revised barbed devil:

"Special Qualities: [...] damage reduction 10/good"
[...]
"A barbed devil's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

And the bone devil:

"Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good"
[...]
"A bone devil's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

 

[BryonD]

It defeats the purpose of the CR system, though, if a CR X threat is so dangerous that level X parties should run away. CR is supposed to be set up so that a level X party should be able to handle a single CR X threat while using 20-25% of its resources. Ergo, violence is supposed to be a valid option for equal CR/EL.

(Note that I'm not saying the titan doesn't meet that criteria; nor am I saying that it does. I'm making a general point that, if the party is the right level and everything else is normal [not injured, etc.], they shouldn't have to run away from a regular titan.)

A) Who says that violence must be a valid option for all conflict resolution?

B) Please show me an example where DR prevents a level appropriate party from having the option of violence.

 

[coyote6]

A) Who says that violence must be a valid option for all conflict resolution?

B) Please show me an example where DR prevents a level appropriate party from having the option of violence.

A) Is the CR system set up to deal with any kind of conflict resolution aside from violence? Do CRs take into account likely or possible Diplomacy skill totals of PC parties?

B) Did I fail to make clear that I wasn't commenting on the DR issue at all, but was disputing Olgar's contention that "sometimes you have to run away" as applied to threats of CR/ELs equal to the party's level? If so, let's try this phrasing: I have no opinion on whether or not a titan's DR would make it too challenging for its CR. Haven't played it out, so can't comment.

Again: CR 21 creature vs. CR 21 party -- the party should not have to run, assuming no other special circumstances. If they do, the CR is out of whack. This does not say that the CR of a titan is out of whack.

It also does not say the CR is in whack. It says nothing about the whack status of the CR of a titan.