D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Eubani]

I mean…you’re describing magic, though.

Like…cosmic forces bestowing power that allow you to ravens beyond normal mortal limits…is magic.

Under that idea anything that is not constrained physical activity is magic. That line of thought destroys most if not all of the flavor in the multiverse. Infact it is that blind sort of thinking that has landed us where we are. Many forces and existences can be used to describe why a mere mortal can go above and beyond what is believed to be mortal limits. Saying that they are all magic removes all the tools available to tell any story outside of magic. You wouldn't by any chance be a member of the SSS?

 

[Justice and Rule]

Cap is a Fighter/Battlemaster with military leadership abilities.
Widow is a Rogue/Assassin with military leadership abilities.
Hawkeye is a Ranger/Hunter with military leadership abilities.
Black Panther is a Monk/Way of the Panther with military leadership abilities.
So many heroes are a [enter class here] who can lead, inspire, and command tactically. Doesn't make them Warlords.

I've always seen Cap as a tactical leader in a way I don't see other heroes, tbh. I remember when they were originally pitching a First-Person Avengers game (I think it was that) and Cap's gimmick was going to be to weaken enemies and set-up combo attacks, which felt Warlord-y to me: a sort of support fighter who enhances others. But I get where you are coming from.

 

[Remathilis]

Cap is a Fighter/Battlemaster with military leadership abilities.
Widow is a Rogue/Assassin with military leadership abilities.
Hawkeye is a Ranger/Hunter with military leadership abilities.
Black Panther is a Monk/Way of the Panther with military leadership abilities.
So many heroes are a [enter class here] who can lead, inspire, and command tactically. Doesn't make them Warlords.

Captain America is a super soldier who was given serum to make him peak (or slightly better than) human capacity.
Black Widow and Winter Soldier had similar serum applied to them, again placing them above peak humanity levels.
Black Panther is enhanced by the special herb and wears an indestructible suit.
Hawkeye is the only member of the Avengers without special abilities, just trained to be a great archer and augmented with special arrow tech.
And everyone else has overt supernatural abilities, be they alien (Thor, Captain Marvel), radioactive (Hulk, Spiderman), tech (Iron Man) or magic (Dr Strange).

I bring this up because being a super soldier or using a special herb is still magic by another name. They aren't shooting energy beams or flying, but they aren't exactly normal. The closest you get to a D&D fighter is Hawkeye; a peak athlete with special weapons. And he ain't exactly trading blows with Thanos.

I bring this up because people want fighters to be mythical but not magical and I don't see how that is possible. It's fine to say you don't want them using spells and having spell slots, but I draw the line at "and he does it all nonmagically." NO. He does it all with some kind of magical origin. Now, I don't really care what that excuse is: all fighters could be super soldiers, all barbarians demigods, all rogues touch a magic herb. But that better be EXPLICIT in the write up that fighters, rogues etc ARE magically augmented somehow beyond the abilities of normal people.

And I don't have a problem with "every class in the game is magical in some way". All characters are special. D&D already feels pretty superhero. But I know there are people who want their cake and to eat it too; they want fighters doing fantastical things with mundane origins. They want Boromir doing Winter Soldier things. And to that I say "tough". Either fighters are mundane people who do not exceed what is possible in reality OR fighters are magical/supernatural people who can do fantastical things.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nick does require an extra roll. The others you mention here don't. More to the point they are not simple, especially when a weapon has two masterys and you need to decide which to apply.

No, Nick does not require an extra roll. It makes two-weapon fighting not cost a bonus action. Without nick, you do the same number of attacks and the same number of rolls, it just costs you more.

And okay, explain to me how "I hit the enemy and push them 10 ft" is not simple.

Except that is literally twice as many rolls on a character 1st to 4th level, and that is before you consider things like Silvery Barbs, Lucky Feats, inspiration etc.

Except for literally every single dual-wielding character that has ever existed, and every single monk that has ever existed. Have you found monks and rangers to drastically slow combat?

And it is before you consider the time it takes to figure out which mastery to take and what to do on level up which will all take longer. Something like DND Beyond can minimize this, but on pen and paper it is going to take time and space on the character sheet to write that down.

This is not a good argument. This is literally "giving me more things means I have more things and that's bad!" Like... yes, getting new abilities will take up more space on the character sheet. So what? That is the literal worst reason not to give out new abilities.

You say "easy DC 14" but I would argue at least 30% of the time someone does not know what their DC is on a battlemaster maneuver. At least 30%, and this will be no different.

Okay? Sure, 30% of them won't know. And you tell them to right it down. I generally use the spell sheet for that. And if you have someone who refuses to write it down and refuses to memorize it... then they have a DC 10 because that is easy to remember. And if they want to have their real DC, then they have to be responsible.

But none of that is about the ability itself, that's about players.

Not in my experience. It is adding math and time at a minimum and we don't need adding time to combat for no reason. The time combat takes already is probably the biggest detractor in the game. Oh I hit him .... what mastery do I get to do now ... I will do this one ... no I will do that one ... wait he is immune to prone so I will do this one instead.

There is no doubt this will increase the time combat takes, even if you believe it is minimal, it will absolutely take longer than combat currently does. I don't see any value from it, what is the positive in terms of play and story that you get from it in exchange for that extra time it takes?

The ability to do more than deal damage. That's the positive. Nothing you are talking about is something new to combat, nothing here is inherently difficult. Heck, the "what mastery" issue is a LEVEL 13 issue, for fighter's exclusively. You may as well complain that Reincarnation is too complicated, it is a high level ability of a single class... at that point, the player should be able to handle it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If it turns your sword into a magic sword, it is the result of magic.

And honestly, why not just give the fighter a straight increase in attack and damage rather than turn their sword into a magic sword?

Because straight increases to attack and damage don't bypass resistance and immunity.

Edit: And to rego back to the original point. One of the other options was basically an aura of daze/fear. You proposed that was fine, but a +3 weapon was borderline unacceptable. Because it was magic.

"As the paladin falls, decapitated, the cleric runs to his side. With tears flowing down their face, they begin casting a spell and in a flash of light, the paladin rises with his head intact. Weakened, the cleric falls to his knees."

"How did you do that?!" The rogue player asked.

"My deity saw my faith and answered my prayer. With divine intervention, they were able to heal."

Vs

"As the paladin falls, decapitated, the rogue runs to his side. With tears flowing down their face, they begin to pull out their surgical equipment and in a few moments, the paladin rises with his head intact. The rogue swipes sweat from his eyebrows."

"How did you do that?!" The cleric player asked.

"Oh, I'm just really good at medicine."

...

Nah, sorry, can't do it. That'd just kill the moment.

So don't describe falling to zero hp as decapitation. That would be a good first step, since decapitation is something that basically never happens in normal play. (Feel free to cite the exactly two instances where it is possible)

Also, in that entire post, where did I ask for Rogue's to have the ability to bring back the dead with a needle and thread? Did I miss that? Though, that being said a high level Phantom Rogue, the one that can steal shards of souls doing that and saying "I stole him back from death" would be a pretty cool moment.

This is what I mean, yes.

Okay, how do you see that working?

90% of spells that inflict a status on the enemy requires a save.

A lot of spells require sight.

A lot of spells require targetting.

Commune has a chance to fail.

Teleport has a chance to fail.

Power Word Kill can fail.

Gate can fail.

Illusions can be seen through.

There are wards, barriers, and areas that can cause spells to fail in general.

There are spells dedicated to making spells fail.

There are many ways spells can just not work, but those spells are considered "bad" because they aren't guaranteed and only the spells with extremely good effects are even considered.

So, by this logic, no attack or skill or anything in the game "just works". The only things that "just work" are.... healing spells? Everything else in the game doesn't. And even those can fail.

So, you want to balance things by getting rid of something that doesn't exist.

Apparently, we can't buff the martials. There's a certain threshold people are willing to let martials be buffed before the casters start having a fit.

And maybe we shouldn't baby casters. If they want to be able to control the fabric of reality the least they can do is understand that power comes with drawbacks.

Those people throwing a fit eventually need to learn that all they are doing is hurting the game. They are the reason everything becomes spells, because magic and spells are the only things allowed to exist outside of the small, tiny paradigm they have established of "possible"

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not hyperbole, a matter of opinion. What abilities do you see the Fighter getting in the playtest that are actually high-powered?

I wasn’t talking about the playtest specifically, so I don’t see the point of this question.

And yes, it’s hyperbole. That its opinion is irrelevant to whether it is hyperbolic.

So, something like a spell that combines the effect of two 1st level spells - let's say Ice Storm combining Grease and Burning Hands for difficult terrain and damage - is an example of a spell that Wizards should be waiting till 13th levvel to pick up? Because clearly the actually martial abilities that combine that way are so awesome that they need to wait till higher levels, so the actually magical ones should be treated in a comparable way.

You’re off on your own having your own conversation, here.

Hercules, on one of his adventures, lifted the world.

If we are gonna nit pick, he held up the world for atlas, which is different from picking up the world. This also occurred in stories wherein the origin of one of the gods was being described, for one thing. For another, being a Demi-god in D&D requires high level, and always has. It’s an oddity, but changing it requires rewriting the game.

Under that idea anything that is not constrained physical activity is magic. That line of thought destroys most if not all of the flavor in the multiverse.

No, it doesn’t. Claiming that it does is more wild, overwrought, hyperbolic nonsense.

Infact it is that blind sort of thinking that has landed us where we are. Many forces and existences can be used to describe why a mere mortal can go above and beyond what is believed to be mortal limits.

Sure. The gods giving you power is magic, though. The monk class is magical.

Saying that they are all magic removes all the tools available to tell any story outside of magic.

Bit circular, here. This wouldn’t be a problem if some folks didn’t have such a problem with the word “magic” being applied to things they want non-spellcasters to do, for some reason.

You wouldn't by any chance be a member of the SSS?

I have no idea what SSS stands for, and please feel free to not explain it because I very much doubt the answer will be illuminating in any sense.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This debate about Martials has raged as long as there has been Dnd. Its always been split between those who want high level Martials like Captain America, and those that want Martials more like Thor.

But everyone....there is no fight here, because WOTC has chosen a side, they are team Cap. So you might get them to budge a bit on the power level of martials, and you can get in a few spellcaster nerfs, but there will not be any 4e like martial manuevers where fighters are suddenly doing the utterly fantastical, its just not going to happen. And any debate trying to get it to that point is just wasted electrons.

I think the best we could hope for beyond what they are doing, is maybe get an extra Epic Boon or something....which is a pretty nice something. But in no scenario are you going to see massive sweeping changes, its just not going to happen.

So a DnD fighter can leap into a 3rd story window? Oh, wait, no...

They can grab and hold a huge or larger flying creature and prevent it from flying? Oh, wait... no....

Can hold and lift building sized chunks of stone? Again.. no

Can dodge lightning without getting singed? No

Can easily survive a 10 mile air drop? (Not unless you cap the fall damage).

Ignores cold weather and hot weather? No.


So, how exactly are DnD fighter's like Captain America again?

And maybe we won't see sweeping changes. But we will never see them unless we consistently fight for them.

 

[Eubani]

I have no idea what SSS stands for, and please feel free to not explain it because I very much doubt the answer will be illuminating in any sense.

SSS = Society for Spellcaster Supremacy. Don't worry it's just a bad joke, then again one never knows where they will turn up. Well actually we do, whenever it appears that martials may get nice things or to kill off discussion about the martial plight.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Cap is a Fighter/Battlemaster with military leadership abilities.
Widow is a Rogue/Assassin with military leadership abilities.
Hawkeye is a Ranger/Hunter with military leadership abilities.
Black Panther is a Monk/Way of the Panther with military leadership abilities.
So many heroes are a [enter class here] who can lead, inspire, and command tactically. Doesn't make them Warlords.

Good thing 5e has a robust suite of military leadershi....

I'm sorry, I can't even finish that without bursting into bitter laughter.

In trying to make the case against the class, you delineated its subclasses.

 

[Asisreo]

Because straight increases to attack and damage don't bypass resistance and immunity.

Edit: And to rego back to the original point. One of the other options was basically an aura of daze/fear. You proposed that fine, but a +3 weapon was borderline unacceptable. Because it was magic.

But we have the ability to bypass BPS resistance/immunity without having to make magic weapons. That's what I don't understand. If the bypass resistance and immunity part is such a big deal, we can just add that clause to the feature. But its just confusing that a nonmagical fighter with no magical powers generates magic weapons because he is really good with it.

So don't describe falling to zero hp as decapitation. That would be a good first step, since decapitation is something that basically never happens in normal play. (Feel free to cite the exactly two instances where it is possible)

Also, in that entire post, where did I ask for Rogue's to have the ability to bring back the dead with a needle and thread? Did I miss that? Though, that being said a high level Phantom Rogue, the one that can steal shards of souls doing that and saying "I stole him back from death" would be a pretty cool moment.

If the character outright dies like by taking damage that's more than their current hp+maximum, the DM can flavor that however they want.

Okay, how do you see that working?

By making them features. Or feats. Or manuevers. Or by fixing the skill system.

So, by this logic, no attack or skill or anything in the game "just works". The only things that "just work" are.... healing spells? Everything else in the game doesn't. And even those can fail.

So, you want to balance things by getting rid of something that doesn't exist.

That's a leap. Clearly there are spells that "just work" but there are a lot that don't and players don't like them because they're pretty much "too fair" to their enemies. Its okay to acknowledge some spells are broken and others aren't bad just because they're fair.

Those people throwing a fit eventually need to learn that all they are doing is hurting the game. They are the reason everything becomes spells, because magic and spells are the only things allowed to exist outside of the small, tiny paradigm they have established of "possible"

I think people aren't understanding my position.

I'm okay with mythical abilities and fantastical feats. I'm okay if the barbarian can rage and run through a mountain or if the rogue can react quicker than the speed of thought.

What I'm not okay with is pure nonsense portrayed as a perfectly logical consequence. Because while movies and comics don't have the characters questioning how exactly their nonsense works if the author doesn't want them to, players can ask as many questions as they want and when something completely ludicrous happens in a game, the game loses all seriousness to something impossible to suspend your disbelief on. Especially when its no longer in their favor.

What triggered my initial reply was the idea of a rogue stealing thoughts or memories because he's such a good thief. Okay, but then you tell them that the memories were stolen back and they instinctively go "How did they steal back their memories in the first place? Where was I storing them? Couldn't I have thrown them away?" And now you have to engage with antics.