D&D 5E 5e fireballs

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Depends on the fighter. What you say is true of a weaponmaster, but a knight puts every creature adjacent to her on permanent lockdown.

Well, sort of. While it's true that the Knight gets the advantage of being able to attack any adjacent foe that either tries to move (which actually does less damage) or shift away or attack allies but not him, the aura also has a (balancing) weakness. Monsters are not actually marked. So once out of the aura (shifting/moving away, having a monster force move the Knight away, using a monster power that shifts his allies, or Dazing/Blinding the Knight so the other monsters can just move away), the -2 to hit for Defender Aura is lost.

Pros and Cons. Knights do make one of the stickiest Defenders, but a simple Bull Rush (or more potent forced movement power or one that targets a better defense) by one of the aura-ed foes can sometimes pretty much negate not just their multi-foe stickiness advantage, but their debuff as well. It's just a different set of monster tactics that are more effective against the aura as opposed to the mark.

Defend the Line is great. It's just easier to counter than some DMs might be managing. Get rid of the OA (and there really are quite a few ways to do this), get rid of the stickiness. And, get rid of the -2 to hit allies.


I'm actually amazed at how many DMs ignore simple solutions to some of these type of PC abilities in the games that I have been in or read about. As an example, an NPC hits a PC Knight with a Tanglefoot Bag on round one and the Knight's aura is mostly useless for part of the encounter. Multiple Tanglefoot Bags throughout the encounter on the Knight and the Knight's aura is pretty much a minor issue for the encounter as the NPCs easily stay away from him (not Eladrin Knights, but most other Knights). Not that many encounters should use this tactic (it would get old if the DM immobilized the Knight in a lot of encounters), but there are just so many different ways in D&D to challenge PCs and their abilities that I rarely see in games.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Fanaelialae

Legend
Well, UngeheuerLich gave me XP for it, so maybe not the only one. ;)

I've received xp as well. ;)

Yeah, been there, done that as both a DM and a player. There are scenarios where Defenders are stickier, but it's usually closer to sticky notes than concrete.

Most defenders are better than sticky notes, but their ability to be concrete should be very limited. Enemies should have a choice to attack non-defenders. It just shouldn't be an optimal choice. Otherwise the defender collects all the mobs and holds them with taunts, and we really do start playing Warcraft.

Aegis of Shielding does nothing to stop an NPC from attacking someone else. It lowers the damage and gives a -2 to hit. And, it's usually one foe. Sorry, but that is not stickiness. That's debuffing and even the -2 doesn't do much compared to a lower AC PC that can be attacked.

Aegis of Shielding makes the Swordmage a much more appealing option by comparison. Have you even played a defender? Your comments seem uninformed. You can attack the Swordmage and deal full damage if you hit, or attack someone else, who probably has a comparable AC after the -2, and inflict severely reduced amount of damage if you manage to hit. Suddenly the swordmage looks like a much more appealing target. Personally, I try to get enemies to provoke my Aegis. I take as many teleports as possible to keep my marks as far away from me as I can. Because whatever I put my Aegis on will be contributing marginally, at best, so long as I can keep it off of me.

Booming Blade does nothing if it misses. It does extra damage if it hits. At higher levels, that damage is relatively minor (4 to maybe 8 damage) when compared to what can be done by the monsters to other PCs. And, it's one foe. This is not even in the sticky category.

Typically, only dailies do something on a miss. Complaining about that is like complaining that the sky is blue. Booming blade scales fairly nicely, actually. It's 1d6 + Con, so it scales with both attributes and magic weapon bonuses. Particularly at low levels, when you're most likely to use it regularly, it boosts a Swordmage's damage to Striker levels when provoked. Please feel free to walk away from my Booming Blade; you'll won't last long trying that.

By the time the damage is useless, you've got enough encounters so that you don't have to worry about it, and can train it out for an at-will of your choice (Lightening Lure is good, though I prefer Sword Burst for the occasional minion swarm). If your point is that it should bump up that damage at 21st level though, I agree. I just don't think it's a big deal since how often do you actually use at-wills at those levels?

Luring Strike does nothing for stickiness unless you hit and unless you move the foe up against a wall or maybe against difficult terrain. So, maybe a 50% chance to be close enough to a wall in a smaller room and a 60% chance to hit your foe. So maybe one round in three against one foe in a small room or one round in ten against a foe in a larger room, this stickier solution might work. Might. This doesn't sound very sticky if it rarely works and is only against one foe.

It's not a 60% hit chance. I take expertise and flank with strikers regularly. Luring Strike helps to guarantee that they stay where I want them. It's very handy for pulling an enemy off of an ally, and the like. I swear by that at-will.

The At Will powers you listed here do very little for stickiness. It's illusory.

They do plenty for at wills. They're not going to move the earth, but they are quite handy.

Foesnare is the only one of the bunch that is reasonably sticky. Even it won't necessarily stop something like a Close Blast (or a Ranged attack, but that provokes), but it does reasonably well for melee attacks.

Dance of the Sword is semi-ok with regard to stickiness for any foes standing next to the Swordmage, but it too doesn't actually stop the foe from moving, just OAs and shifting. So NPCs further away in the burst aren't necessarily hindered in any way.

That's why you position yourselves before using either ability. Seriously, does this really require explaining?

Except for Foesnare, none of these attacks actually stop a foe from moving away from the Swordmage and attacking someone else. Soft stickiness, not hard stickiness. Some of them will result in an OA if the Swordmage uses them, again, assuming that a different NPC doesn't move the Swordmage first. The game is not played in a bubble. Most of this is not forcing in any way. The DM can have the NPCs do whatever he wants for the most part. That's the part of this equation that you appear to be missing. Defenders penalize foes for attacking someone else, they typically do not prevent it.

Yup, and I see nothing wrong with that. If the DM wants to nerf his damage into the ground while simultaneously giving me striker-like output, who am I to look a gift horse in the mouth? Typically though, the DM weighs his options before provoking my swordmage's wrath. There's nothing intelligent about giving the players extra damage while simultaneously penalizing your own.

One has to look at the odds of each of these being used. Let's assume AC is attacked half of the time and the other 3 are each attacked 1 time in 6.

Yes, Fighters can be poor against Reflex or Will. But, they have AC (50% of most attacks) and Fort (16%) locked up. Typically, they have either Reflex or Will covered, so they only have a defense weakness against about 16% of all attacks.

Wizards typically have 2 of the 4 covered (Reflex and something else) and the often used AC isn't usually one of them (shy of feat/power tax). So instead of being low defense for 16% of attacks, he's low defense on 66% of attacks. Plus he has fewer hit points. Lose lose. His non-Daily powers (the vast majority of his attacks) really don't make up for this because they are not that much more potent than attacks from other PCs.

Seriously, have you actually played a Wizard against a DM who doesn't hold the player's hands and has intelligent foes go for the jugular, and a DM who creates unique unexpected or rarely seen challenges?

Yes, I have played a wizard against a killer DM. Both of my current DMs are from the no-holds-barred, killing player characters brings a special joy to my world, school of DMing. I took lumps sometimes, but so did everyone else. If anything, I fared better than most. Most of the time I was stepping in (figuratively, of course) to save the strikers. I didn't die, which is more than I can say about the rogue.

The wizard takes (or at least should take) a lot less attacks than the defender. If he's not, you're doing something wrong. Hence, his lower AC should not matter that often.

Like I said, in my games, having unusual terrain features is pretty typical. In this case, the size of the room was part of the XP handed out, the foes themselves were pretty wimpy but used terrain INTELLIGENTLY (the thing we have been talking about the entire time, intelligent foes). This particular map came from one of the WotC modules. So if you consider small 6x6 rooms where the Swordmage can sometimes push a foe up against the wall as typical and the monsters in the next room over don't come and investigate when a fight is going on, whatever. To me, there is no such thing as typical or atypical. PCs have to be able to adapt to all situations.

You cannot have it both ways. If the PCs are in a large room, the Defender will require time to get to each foe and the foes can spread out. Sure, the Wizard can be at the far side of the room, but the attackers can mostly ignore the Defender and use ranged or melee attacks against whomever they want.

If the PCs are in a small room, then the Wizard doesn't have room to get away. Sure, the Defender might be able to more easily partially lock down one or two foes, but the squishier PCs have nowhere to go to avoid bursts and blasts and if foes get in their faces, they'll have a harder time running away. If they run out of the room the way they came in, nothing usually stops a monster or two from chasing after them.

I also note your comment on Wizards just running away a bit as a viable Wizard solution to attacks. That can make it tough for the Leader to come heal the Wizard if the Wizard is far away when he gets knocked unconscious. These types of generic tactics like running away usually don't work well for one reason or another in many encounters against intelligent foes. For example, Wizard runs out of a room, monster closes door to the room, the Wizard is cut off from the fight. Seriously, do you consider running away a GOOD defensive tactic for the party as a whole?

One other note. Most monsters have really good initiative modifiers (a Wizard, not so much, even with Improved Initiative unless he is a Dex Wizard which makes his other defenses weaker). Unless the PCs have ways to boost their initiatives, on average, monsters tend to often go early. Intelligent monsters should use this to put PCs at a tactical disadvantage, right from the start.

And like I said, if you run an atypical encounter then the encounter guidelines don't work too well. The example you gave was quite atypical, regardless of whether you think of it that way or not. You can claim that mistakes were made, but in my book a mistake is putting your Aegis on a Soldier. Not thinking to bring out a light source when suffering darkness penalties goes way beyond a mistake in my book. Seriously, what kind of N + 0 encounter lasts 12+ rounds at 6th level?

(This is why I brought up my 3e example. If you run a non-standard encounter, you should expect non-standard results. You can't give a pair of goblin rogues a ton of consumables to use before the encounter starts, have them win easily, and then point to that as a reason that the WPL guidelines are broken. PCs aren't going to be able to employ such a strategy under typical circumstances.)

I don't typically see tiny areas in 4e. Moderate to large size areas are much more common, because they encourage non-static play.

What it comes down to is that you have to play intelligently if you want to succeed. The wizard is still a challenging class. You have to identify who your most important targets for control are. Sometimes you have to stand at a distance (such as when slowing targets) and sometimes you should stand near (such as when expecting the defender to take the heat off of you). Never move to where the leader can't heal you unless you're certain you won't need healing. If you play it like a fighter or a rogue, expect to die. You have to play it like a wizard in order to excel.

In any case, I have a small mountain of school work and work projects to get through before the weekend, since I've got game (D&D) and the game (Superbowl). So you can consider me out of this discussion, as I don't expect I'll have much time for debate in the next few days.
 
Last edited:

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Most defenders are better than sticky notes, but their ability to be concrete should be very limited. Enemies should have a choice to attack non-defenders. It just shouldn't be an optimal choice. Otherwise the defender collects all the mobs and holds them with taunts, and we really do start playing Warcraft.

Agreed (although a challenging encounter can make it optimal to avoid the Defender).

Aegis of Shielding makes the Swordmage a much more appealing option by comparison. Have you even played a defender? Your comments seem uninformed. You can attack the Swordmage and deal full damage if you hit, or attack someone else, who probably has a comparable AC after the -2, and inflict severely reduced amount of damage if you manage to hit. Suddenly the swordmage looks like a much more appealing target. Personally, I try to get enemies to provoke my Aegis. I take as many teleports as possible to keep my marks as far away from me as I can. Because whatever I put my Aegis on will be contributing marginally, at best, so long as I can keep it off of me.

I don't actually see this (and yes, I played a Swordmage with an Aegis of Shielding in PBP). Compare a Swordmage to a Thief or Rogue. They both have Leather, they both have ability score, they both have magic, but the Swordmage is +3 AC whereas the Thief or Rogue is +0.

Attacking the Rogue is +1 to hit, +2 with a Charge.

Let's look at damage.

The Aegis drops damage by about 7 or 8 points at low level. I agree with you. This can be huge with regard to damage. It effectively negates most of the damage of a single foe. In a 6 round encounter, that can be 40 to 50 points of damage that it can negate or the equivalent of 3 heals if every single attack hits. It's has the potential to be huge.

But, there are still a few other things to consider. First, does the monster have an effect that's worth putting on a different foe? For example, weakness on a Striker. Damaging the striker doesn't matter as much as limiting the striker's effectiveness. Or, Dazing a Leader so that the leader has to choose whether to heal or to attack. There are situations where the damage portion of the attack isn't what's important, the rider effect is what is important. In fact, some rider powers actually do low damage to begin with because the effect is strong.

Second, how much damage does this actually negate? A same level monster with +5 to hit has a 30% chance to hit the first level Swordmage for 8.5 damage and 5% chance to do 12 damage (crit, D8+4). Or, it can get a 40% chance charging the first level Rogue for 1.5 damage and 5% chance to do 7 damage (crit). 3.15 average damage per round against the Swordmage, 0.95 average damage per round charging the Rogue. In reality, that saves 2.2 points of damage per round or 13.2 damage in a 6 round encounter if the Aegis can be used every single round.

In reality, it's just a bit stronger than a single healing power per encounter unless it is a long encounter if and only if the Aegis-ed foe decides to charge a PC other than the Swordmage every single round. But, the Aegis-ed foe is not necessarily forced to attack someone else. He could close blast the Swordmage and another PC or two. He could shift back and area blast the Swordmage and someone else. He could even charge bull rush a different defender to free up his allies where the negation of the Aegis is assumed by the monster (or charge bull rush a different PC into a hazard), so the monster does something else useful instead.

And, the damage reduction of an Aegis of Shielding doesn't necessarily occur every single round. It doesn't happen if the Swordmage doesn't have line of effect. It doesn't happen if the monster shifts and range attacks a PC more than 10 away from the Swordmage. It doesn't happen if the monster misses its target. And most importantly, it doesn't happen if a Swordmage uses a different Immediate Interrupt or Reaction power that round. Swordmage's have quite a few other Immediate Action powers that prevent an Aegis working in the same round (or alternatively, the Aegis prevents those other powers from working).

So yes, an Aegis of Shielding is a real nice power if one looks at damage mitigation only and one assumes that it can be used every round. But, it typically works out to be at most as useful as a single healing power (and as levels go up, this becomes less and less of an overall savings). Good. Not awesome.

But, a good DM can lessen the effects of powers like Aegis of Shielding just by using good monster tactics. The DM doesn't have to kowtow to the stickiness of the Swordmage.

I don't disagree that Swordmages can defend and can be effective. I just disagree that they are real sticky against multiple foes. Most of the time, that can be worked around.

Booming blade scales fairly nicely, actually. It's 1d6 + Con, so it scales with both attributes and magic weapon bonuses. Particularly at low levels, when you're most likely to use it regularly, it boosts a Swordmage's damage to Striker levels when provoked. Please feel free to walk away from my Booming Blade; you'll won't last long trying that.

If Booming Blade hits in the first place. If Booming Blade hits in the second place. If the target is still adjacent at the beginning of his turn. If the target doesn't have resistance or thunder resistance. If the target doesn't use a close burst or blast.

Yes, Booming Blade can do extra damage and often does. No doubt. But, it isn't hard stickiness and a DM can get around it. The adjacent clause is the easiest one to negate via other monsters (moving the Swordmage, or moving his BBed foe).

And like I said, if you run an atypical encounter then the encounter guidelines don't work too well. The example you gave was quite atypical, regardless of whether you think of it that way or not. You can claim that mistakes were made, but in my book a mistake is putting your Aegis on a Soldier. Not thinking to bring out a light source when suffering darkness penalties goes way beyond a mistake in my book. Seriously, what kind of N + 0 encounter lasts 12+ rounds at 6th level?

They did have a light source. The players just did not realize that a sunrod has a 20 radius and they could have lit up the entire room much earlier. That was their mistake. Being in the dark only gave the foes Combat Advantage. The hazard of the room was its length combined with the pits on the side that were hard to get around. The PCs also moved to the side of the room which allowed the pits to be more useful for the NPCs (a mistake in hindsight, but not one that could easily be determined ahead of time). It took quite a few rounds, even running, for the PCs to get within normal 10 square range for ranged attacks and even more for melee attacks. And because they were running, their own ranged attacks were at -5 to hit back. Plus, the enemies had move 6 (some PCs only had 5) and teleports, so they could teleport over the pits when they got in trouble. And, some of the enemy attacks had forced movement effects, so they could push the PCs away from them or into the pits.

You totally missed the point of the darkness / terrain effects combined with the abilities of the NPCs. That's why it was 12 rounds. The PCs had to run from one end of the room to the other, and then back again with some combat in the middle.

And yes, my encounters can last that long. This one did. The enemies moved back away from the PCs once the PCs got close and used the pits to segregate themselves away from the PCs.

Your analysis of this encounter combined with your analysis of Defenders and Wizards here makes me realize that your DMs are probably not challenging you as much as they could if you consider this an atypical encounter (especially considering your comment about your games typically having moderate to large size areas). 4E is actually a pretty easy game once the PCs get a bit above low level if the DM doesn't pull out the stops (and that doesn't mean higher level encounters, it means encounters that challenge the normal tactics of the PCs like this one did).

A long room like this, even without darkness, could allow Artillery to light up a Wizard at the other end. I'm not quite seeing how it's tough to target a Wizard in many encounters unless it's a small room where the Defender can partially hinder some foes and even that can be worked around.

You have to play it like a wizard in order to excel.

No doubt. They're still wimps except for their Dailes. :lol:
 

Szatany

First Post
Out of curiosity. If this system was implemented in 3e, how do you think Fireball would look like? I think something like this:

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft.)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 5d6 points of fire damage to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
Level 4: Fireball deals 7d6 points of fire damage.
Level 5: Fireball deals 9d6 points of fire damage.
Level 6: Fireball deals 11d6 points of fire damage.
Level 7: Fireball deals 13d6 points of fire damage.
Level 8: Fireball deals 15d6 points of fire damage.
Level 9: Fireball deals 17d6 points of fire damage.
Just occured to me that this could be expanded upon. Why limit upgrades to damage?

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (100 ft.)
Area: 15 by 15 ft.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 5d6 points of fire damage to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
Advancement: For each level you add, choose one of the effects.
- Plus 2d6 damage.
- Plus 100 ft. to range.
- Plus 5 ft. to area (on each side)
- Plus 1 to DC and +4 to breach Spell Resistance.
 

Remove ads

Top