D&D 5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

Status
Not open for further replies.

seebs

Adventurer
Sure, my point was mostly about the text's "white default" assumption being...well...not great. It clearly has that assumption. If the text was about oils and shine and not about your "pallid white face," it wouldn't be that little bit racist that it is. :)

Ahh, with the increased context... Yeah, that's absolutely true, and it is definitely an example of sort of passive racism. (A kind I'm pretty vulnerable to; I grew up in southern Minnesota, and there was exactly one black kid in my entire elementary school.)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

seebs

Adventurer
The best I can muster to this kind of argument is 'oh, good grief.' This is looking for offense. Shockingly, when you do that, you find it.

That book was written in the early nineties. Things are better today. I have little patience for arguments that hold up what's just obliviousness in an earlier time and put it under the microscope of today and claim that 'nope, this is still a problem.' Find a similar passage in today's material and I'll gladly jump on your bandwagon just to slap some awareness into the author. Until then, stop looking for offense in 20 year old sourcebooks.

The claim that "things are better", while certainly generally true, falls far short of "things are so much better that there is no reason to think that maybe more should be done."
 

Wik

First Post
I should note that there isn't actually any correlation between the presence or absence of grammatical gender in a language and its culture's attitudes towards biological sex and cultural gender. (Not even when grammatical gender ostensibly maps to "male"/"female", which it doesn't always -- "animate"/"inanimate" is also a common distinction, and there are many others.) Most languages do not have grammatical gender, but most cultures are pretty darn sexist.

My elves, simply put, don't have gender roles. Men and women perform the same activities and wear the same clothes (appropriately tailored, of course). They don't pretend biological sex doesn't exist, but outside romance and reproduction they think it's as relevant as handedness or eye color. Their languages, however, still have a full-blown gender system with masculine and feminine names and pronouns. Admittedly, this is partially because I decided not to reinvent the wheel and just used Quenya and Sindarin, but I wouldn't have done that if I didn't know it was plausible. Just because the grammar makes a distinction doesn't mean the speakers, in the bigger picture, care. (Do you think the Old English cared more about the number two than we do because they had a dual as well as a plural?)

And there are infinite ways you can play with these linguistic concepts. My dwarves don't have masculine and feminine names; I've just got one big unisex master list. But they do have grammatical gender, which means that the same name declines differently for a man than for a woman. So people who don't know the dwarven language may make erroneous assumptions about their attitudes, seeing the same names and not realizing how they're distinguished. I even suggest that this fact contributes to the ignorant myth among humans that there are no dwarf women, or that they are "disguised" as men.

Again... you're quoting the wrong person. I have no idea about giantish languages, and the post my quote links to have nothing to do with giant languages....?
 

Tia Nadiezja

First Post
Again... you're quoting the wrong person. I have no idea about giantish languages, and the post my quote links to have nothing to do with giant languages....?

Yeah. Somehow your name ended up in a quote of my post.

Which he also totally missed the point of.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
This makes an important point: you can have effects that are bigoted without actually being aggressively bigoted yourself.

That's important because it's counter-intuitive. It's easy for us to presume that, you know, if we didn't mean to offend anyone, than anyone who gets offended is pretty much over-reacting by definition. It's not like TSR meant to be racist, but someone who rolls their eyes at that paragraph and says, "yeah, that's actually kind of racist, guys" is still right. It doesn't mean that TSR was being staffed by KKK members out of Lake Geneva, but the fact that it wasn't meant to be offensive doesn't change the fact that it kind of is.

This is an incredibly important point.

That's worth mentioning often in part BECAUSE it's counter-intuitive - it's something easy to forget.

It is especially easy to forget if you are not in the group that's being left out, and/or are on the top of the social ladder so you don't otherwise have concerns about recognition.

So pointing out that D&D was sometimes a bit awful about these things in the past is in part a call to learn from that history, so we don't repeat its mistakes...

It was worse in the past. There have been improvements. But, if we are not wary, we can stagnate and not continue to improve.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
The idea of leaving the NPC's orientation blank, to be filled in later, doesn't work in practical terms. That's what we do now. I mentioned that latest DDEX adventure, Shackles of Blood, some ways back. Three NPC's (well, actually 4) are identified as hetero. All other NPC's are blank. And that makes sense because for all the other NPC's, the notion of their sexuality probably will never come up. Random Red Shirt bad guy thug number 27 doesn't need that level of detail. But, the problem is, the only time you are identified is if you're hetero.

Again, for the umpteenth time, all that's being asked for here is a couple of examples, a bone or two, in published modules or whatnot, of non-hetero identified people. Do it enough times, and it's ok if it's the bad guy. It doesn't have to be major NPC's, heck, it doesn't even have to come up in play necessarily. It just has to be there. A bit. A smidgeon.

Why is this such a big deal to ask for?

You misunderstand. Not blank as in, nothing is said, but a specific call out that this NPC requires the DM to add that detail. Not throwaway guys, but actual, recurring NPCs. This does two things, one it provides a space for people to enjoy diversity, if they choose, and two, it makes the game feel more owned by the players.

And, as I've said, I have zero problem with specific call outs. I just think that specifically calling out a space for people to put in that detail, if they want, is also a good idea. One is not the enemy of the other.
 

seebs

Adventurer
You misunderstand. Not blank as in, nothing is said, but a specific call out that this NPC requires the DM to add that detail. Not throwaway guys, but actual, recurring NPCs. This does two things, one it provides a space for people to enjoy diversity, if they choose, and two, it makes the game feel more owned by the players.

And, as I've said, I have zero problem with specific call outs. I just think that specifically calling out a space for people to put in that detail, if they want, is also a good idea. One is not the enemy of the other.

You'd previously, so far as I can tell, advocated specifically not including specifically-gay characters, but rather offered this as an alternative. I do like the idea of leaving some explicitly-unspecified cases in, but I don't think it really does much to solve the problem. It does address a different problem.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
It's not exactly a trivial point - it supports my larger point by showing a history of unintentional discrimination within D&D specifically (unless, I suppose, one wants to argue that this was intentional, I guess?). It was both not really the intent of these well-meaning writers, but also still the effect. It wasn't conscious.

This makes an important point: you can have effects that are bigoted without actually being aggressively bigoted yourself.

That's important because it's counter-intuitive. It's easy for us to presume that, you know, if we didn't mean to offend anyone, than anyone who gets offended is pretty much over-reacting by definition. It's not like TSR meant to be racist, but someone who rolls their eyes at that paragraph and says, "yeah, that's actually kind of racist, guys" is still right. It doesn't mean that TSR was being staffed by KKK members out of Lake Geneva, but the fact that it wasn't meant to be offensive doesn't change the fact that it kind of is.

That's worth mentioning often in part BECAUSE it's counter-intuitive - it's something easy to forget. If it's something that happens to TSR circa 1989, it's also something that probably happens to people today in some way (even if not in the same way).

I was using it to illustrate the point that we can transform the often-kind-of-repugnant fantasy that we cull from as source material into something that is better than its source material in that respect, and one of the ways we can do that is by telling stories that feature things that would've been unthinkable in 1989 or 1919 or 1890 or earlier - things like black PC's. Or a tragic lesbian love-triangle. Or some random gay commoner. It runs counter to the argument that "this doesn't come up in D&D" by saying that sometimes having it come up in D&D is absolutely what you WANT.

It also serves to illustrate a point about vigilance: if you can cause discriminatory effects without holding an ounce of discrimination in your heart, it's important to keep an eye out for when that happens, and it's important to be able to correct yourself when you've done something a little bit awful, even if you didn't mean to, because you want the effects of your actions to line up with your intent.

An explicit policy of inclusion like WotC's or the OP's can serve to enhance that vigilance.

So pointing out that D&D was sometimes a bit awful about these things in the past is in part a call to learn from that history, so we don't repeat its mistakes and arrogantly presume that if we don't mean for it to be offensive, then it shouldn't be taken to be offensive. It's also in part showing that we aren't tethered to the past for our new stories - that it "not coming up in D&D" might be part of why you MAKE it come up in D&D, because there's awesome new tales to be told and adventures to be had when you look at D&D through that lens.
Well, now I'm back to intentionally looking for offense in 20+ year old sourcebooks. It's not shocking that your found it. No one is shocked by that. Pointing to that as a big 'background history of racism' is pointless. We all know racism exists, existed, and will continue to exist. The important thing isn't that you can find some obvious unintentional racism back in the day, its how much has changed since then. That passage doesn't exist in today's D&D. Instead, we have call outs to be more inclusive of things that would have caused a public outcry in the days that DOMA and DADT were being passed in Congress. Those are dead, and that mindset is fading. Pointing out that it used to exist is like saying that we need to be careful going outside because once there were velociraptors.

If we start actually forgetting that we're better and working hard towards being even better than that, then sure, drag out the history books and point to where we've done this all before. Until then, it's just looking to be offended so that the righteousness doesn't fade.

What WotC did with the diversity statement is a good thing. It's moving in the right direction. It's leaps and bounds above what's come before. 1989 source books have little to say about where we are or where we are going. It's a nice platitude to say 'don't forget the past', but that only works if we're actually in danger of slipping. I don't see that. What I do see is people eager to enact massive social changes, and angry that it isn't happening faster. This is one of the fastest social changes in Western history -- less than 10 years from no chance to national recognition of marriage rights. Suffrage didn't happen that fast, nor did Civil Rights. I see things moving quickly and well in the right direction, but taking militant stances like 'failure to have things that look like me is erasure!' or 'if you're not for us, your against us' are ridiculous things to start saying when you're winning the culture war. It's a fast way to see some pushback from the middle that's happy to go along so long as you don't paint them as heedless bigots on the wrong side of history.
 

seebs

Adventurer
But again, I didn't say "if you're not for us, you're against us". I said that media which lack representation measurably hurt tolerance and social acceptance for the groups excluded. That's not some sweeping claim of dogma, it's the underlying scientific result that led to considering this to be an issue in the first place.
 

Jessica

First Post
The fourth-largest city in the country just basically voted that I shouldn't be allowed to use a public restroom without risk of assault and/or arrest. Yeah, I think we need to talk more about this stuff in basically every medium.

I heard about the HERO vote. That's horrible that people would do that. I always thought Houston was such a progressive city.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top