D&D 5E 5th Edition -- Help Me Break the Game!

[hyphz]

Can you be a monk and rage? In 3E, monks must be of lawful alignment and barbarians cannot rage if lawful. Another problem might be that the Duelling style only gives you a bonus if you have a weapon in hand, and the Unarmed damage requires you to be unarmed - these would seem to be mutually exclusive.

The text states that you can make an extra unarmed attack after hitting with a monk weapon, so presumably you can hit them with the unarmed offhand. (The actual example is a quarterstaff which is Versatile but I'm assuming common sense says that you cannot wield it two-handed then get the extra unarmed attack.)

 

[omniknight]

For one round. Have you played a wizard in 5E? A L1 spell slot is valuable. At levels 3-5, it's a major asset. You could be putting 4-5 kobolds to sleep with that slot, shutting down half an encounter. Instead you're burning it for a 1-round AC spike. Worth it under certain circumstances, but you aren't going to be doing it regularly.

More to the point, the non-armored wizard can cast shield just as easily and will get more mileage out of it in terms of damage prevented. The 18th-level Spell Mastery pick is a very good idea, quite possibly the best choice for your first-level SM slot; but again, any wizard can do the same thing. (I also don't put a lot of weight on anything that starts with "At 18th level..." It's kind of like saying, "When I win the lottery..." Fun to daydream about, not a lot of practical impact for most folks.)

Yes, I have played one, have you? If you have, you'd know having Shield in your back pocket is an invaluable tool for emergencies.

First, the key is that it is cast as a reaction on being hit so it is never a wasted cast, like Shield of Faith (or even Mage Armor) might be. Depending on the thing that hits you, and your remaining HP, you could decide just to absorb the blow and not spend the L1 spell slot. At later levels as you get more spell slots that becomes less of an issue anyway, until you hit 18 and then it is a non-factor.

And second, with my suggested setup I am not spending a guaranteed L1 spell slot on Mage Armor AND I still have a higher normal AC than you. With 20 AC just from plate armor + a shield, and sitting in the back sniping with spells, I'm rarely hit anyway. It also frees up a magic item "slot" for something else, as more +AC is overkill. You also get other benefits from Cleric 1 that we aren't talking about here.

Lastly, this makes DEX a viable dump stat if you aren't using ranged weapons. That makes STR/DEX/CHA all potential dump stats, depending on how you want to build your Wizard. With a standard 27 PB there are some points left over after 15 INT/15 CON/13 WIS to play around with.

 

[Zelc]

I don't know if this counts as broken but it seems a bit off to me:

Monk/Way of the Four Elements 7 Fighter 2 Barbarian 1, assume +3 strength, wielding a short sword. Fighter fighting style: Dueling.

Short sword damage d6 +3, plus rage +2, plus dueling +2, plus fangs of the fire snake +1d10, *2 for extra attack from monk 5, all *2 from action surge
Plus flurry of blows, monk 7 unarmed damage d6+3 plus rage +2, *2 for flurry of blows
= 6d6+38+4d10, average 76 damage to a single target in 1 round at level 10

I'm not aware that any of these classes on their own can equal this. Fighter does best, 5d6+35, with two shortswords, champion path, dueling and two-weapon styles.

The Fighter gets a big damage boost at level 11. Assuming +5 Strength, he gets 3*(2d6 Greatsword +5 Strength +1.33 Great Weapon Fighting) = 40 damage, *2 for 80 damage with Action Surge. This doesn't consider the +2 to hit and +1 crit range the Fighter has. The multiclass combo gets there one level earlier but pays for it later on with worse advancement.

 

[Zelc]

A normal Wizard with Mage Armor would probably start with 15 AC (Mage Armor + Dex). A Wizard x/Cleric 1 starts with 18 AC (Chain mail + Shield) and quickly improves to 20 AC. The higher AC costs 10 speed (heavy armor) and getting everything a level later (except the spell slots). At level 4 the straight Wizard is up +2 Int. At level 5 the straight Wizard gets 3rd level spells and an extra spell level for Arcane Recovery. At level 20 the straight Wizard gets two 3rd level spells for free. It's a big boost to AC but there is a significant trade-off.

The Shield spell affects both builds equally and I'm not sure why it benefits the Wizard x/Cleric 1 over the normal Wizard.

At later levels as you get more spell slots that becomes less of an issue anyway, until you hit 18 and then it is a non-factor.

Level 19. The first level is a different class.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Historically the path of optimization to the point of breaking the game lies in a few different areas.

• Multiclass level dipping
• Spells and spell combinations
• Action economy, extra attacks and action surge like abilities, bonus actions

So far it seems like the greatest benefit of multiclassing is to help with the other two categories. So taking a couple levels of fighter for action surge, or a couple levels of rogue for cunning action, or mixing spellcasting classes for spell diversity, seem like your best bets.

I think the bard class with it's magical secrets ability will be the center of some very good game breaking combinations especially as more and more spells are released, bard might just be the top tier casting class at higher levels.

But my best advice to game the system and optimize is know your DM. Just like in poker don't just play the game play the person, so look at house rules for exploits, play his pet race, if he uses fumble rules play a halfling, stuff like that.

I love theory crafting and optimization and hope we can get this back on track, I have been breaking the game and having fun with it since 1st edition with my dart throwing weapon specialist fighters, and in 2nd edition with my bladesinger kit elves, always looking for the best exploits.

I agree one of the primary ways to create an OP PC will likely involve starting as fighter 2, for full armour, second wind and action surge, then MCing into another class... which will let you do whatever very bad ass thing you want to do twice in a single round, and reset on a short rest.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Too lazy for real math, but level 11 fighter with great weapon master and +5 str using action surge:
12d6+90

Add a level of barbarian for adv on those 6 attacks, and a bit of extra static dmg too.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Add a level of barbarian for adv on those 6 attacks, and a bit of extra static dmg too.

I'll have you know I am an accomplished Battlemaster, good sir, not an illiterate savage. If I want to improve my accuracy, I'll use Feint for advantage and an extra d10 damage on my first attack, then use precision attack on the next four.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Add a level of barbarian for adv on those 6 attacks, and a bit of extra static dmg too.

I dunno. Advantage on attacks is nice, but it comes at the cost of advantage against you for a round, too. Barbarians have high HD to balance that. (Also, I think that feature is 2nd level now, not first. It's not an intrinsic part of rage, but its own thing.)

Plus, you'll have to forego the fighter's heavy armor, or else forego the barbarian's rage (and fast movement, and unarmored AC bonus).

It's doable, absolutely, but there are better synergies out there.

 

[Emirikol]

Good thread.



As a GM, I enjoy reading these. It gives me bearings on what to expect, and if I see anything that looks crazy, I get a chance to nerf its possibility.





jh

 

[omniknight]

A normal Wizard with Mage Armor would probably start with 15 AC (Mage Armor + Dex). A Wizard x/Cleric 1 starts with 18 AC (Chain mail + Shield) and quickly improves to 20 AC. The higher AC costs 10 speed (heavy armor) and getting everything a level later (except the spell slots). At level 4 the straight Wizard is up +2 Int. At level 5 the straight Wizard gets 3rd level spells and an extra spell level for Arcane Recovery. At level 20 the straight Wizard gets two 3rd level spells for free. It's a big boost to AC but there is a significant trade-off.

15 AC vs 18/20 AC is huge. Because of bounded accuracy 20 AC is relevant into the high levels whereas 15 AC is easy for even early mobs to overcome. And the Cleric 1 / Wizard 19 doesn't have to use a L1 spell slot for Mage Armor. And there is no -10 speed if you go Dwarf.

Why mention all of those things that the straight Wizard gets that the Cleric/Wizard gets too? Granted all Wizard features are delayed by one level, but at 20 you still end up with everything but the lackluster capstone. Two free L3 spells per day is hardly worth sticking to Wizard 20 for, when you can instead get all the armor stuff and a bunch of Cantrips and L1 spells (healing specifically) with Cleric 1 right away.

The Shield spell affects both builds equally and I'm not sure why it benefits the Wizard x/Cleric 1 over the normal Wizard.

The Cleric/Wizard with 20 AC is going to have to rely on Shield much less often than the straight Wizard with 15 AC. Also 20 AC is much more hittable than 25 AC is.