AD&D First Edition inferior?

[GENEWEIGEL]

Whoo Hoo!

Alright, some good points were raised here that I've had on the backburner for a while.

The complaint about the long stats and then the defense of using the DMG standard NPCs or Jamis Buck's generator.

Is it just me or does this need to be resolved for 3e to survive the long run?

Seriously, I commented about the poor quality of Enemies and Allies some where else a while back and I got an earful of why people thought the original Rogues Gallery was lame. I'm still not convinced. I think the original Rogues Gallery style is desperately needed for 3rd edition.

Enemies and Allies could of been done by every single one of us on this messageboard without any problem.

A Rogues Gallery would of been quite a task to compile all the stats in a spectrum of typicals in an easy reference format.

I think a redo of that kind of book is needed to have all the data ready for a quick throw in.

And afterwards incorporate it into a DM's screen "companion".

I don't want another earful on how someone thought the Rogues Gallery wasn't useful for their "storytime" campaign either.

I know! I know! Violence is bad! It's bad!

If anyone else has any other angles of complaints about that idea it's welcomed but let's not make this a pot-AE-to/pot-AH-to mish mosh again.



And I'm not talking about the crappy 2e Rogues Gallery either!

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by GENEWEIGEL, abuser of font sizes:
The complaint about the long stats and then the defense of using the DMG standard NPCs or Jamis Buck's generator.

Is it just me or does this need to be resolved for 3e to survive the long run?

The reason 3e stat blocks are longer is that they handle skills, something that 1e never handled until the OA/DSG/WSG era, and even then it never got added to stat blocks and probably should have then. If D&D needed anything to survive the long run it was a semblance of a skill system; it has it now.

Seriously, I commented about the poor quality of Enemies and Allies some where else a while back and I got an earful of why people thought the original Rogues Gallery was lame.

Well let me join the chorus. I got much more use out of Enemies & Allies than I ever got out of the Rogues Gallery. After the munchkins extracted the stats for the super-paladin and super-bard, about the only purpose the original Rogues Gallery served was some interesting reading and satisfaction of curiosity over a few characters from the game's formative days. Not to practical a supplement at all IME.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Enemies and Allies could of been done by every single one of us on this messageboard without any problem.

A Rogues Gallery would of been quite a task to compile all the stats in a spectrum of typicals in an easy reference format.

I think a redo of that kind of book is needed to have all the data ready for a quick throw in.

If you think E&A could have been done by anyone (and, even though I really like E&A, I agree, given the time, anyone could have), then you must see that, given today's computer resources, the Rogue's Gallery would be even easier to do. I don't see why it would be such a task - even e-tools can randomly generate NPCs. Maybe one of the d20 publishers will produce such a book, for those without computers or internet access. Still, the lack of interest in simply doing this as a community project each time it's been proposed before (I don't know how many times someone has suggested it, others have crowed about how enthusiastic they are, and then the subject simply dies without anyone posting any "generic" NPCs) suggests that maybe there isn't that much of a call for it. I wouldn't mind having such a book. Also, if I'm getting what you're saying, I wouldn't mind all the DMG "stock" NPCs being put into a book, with full stat blocks for each level, since the format in the DMG, while good if you aren't in a hurry, isn't so great for spur-of-the-moment NPCs. Plus, adding in "generic" stats for the NPC classes is something I think is needed also (the Expert would be the class that would need the most attention).

Another cool thing would be for someone to compile all the OGC NPC stats from the various d20 books out there. That would give a broad spectrum of NPCs also, from low to high levels.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

I don't want to be your enemy PSION.

Didn't I just make a comment about "pot-AE-to/pot-AH-to" arguements?

Seriously, you just reminded me of an old Mad Magazine with Captain Klutz slurping up the breakfast cereal and saying he loves it when he's offered a large sum to be in their commercials and then the Chief tells him he's not eating the bowl of cereal but an ashtray full of cigarettes.



Lets get down to brass tacks. I don't want to fight you. Hell without young players like yourself the game wouldn't survive.

 

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

...If D&D needed anything to survive the long run it was a semblance of a skill system; it has it now...

I think something along the lines of the broad skill groups found in Gary's Lejendary Adventures would have been a more steamlined way to go however. I keep meaning to sit down and adapt it to O(A)D&D.

During the time I spent DMing 3e, I found the stat blocks to be far too unwieldy for my tired old brain to deal with--or maybe it's just that I don't have the time to devote to gaming that I had when I was Younger.

In any event, as things stand now IMC, characters have their own "schticks", and the more inline an action is with these concepts, the more likely the character will be able to accomplish it--while the further afield it is, the less likely success will be. This is all accomplished by seat-of-the-pants rulings and an Xd6 roll versus the relevant ability (assuming the task is even possible for the character in question). In terms of philosophy I think it's close to LA's skill groups--I just haven't gotten around to codifying things yet (assuming such would be a good idea).

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

Another cool thing would be for someone to compile all the OGC NPC stats from the various d20 books out there. That would give a broad spectrum of NPCs also, from low to high levels.

Thank you, sir!



This is exactly what I'm talking about.

The details would have codes to represent game elements (feats, skills) and have it all charted sideways.

I'm sorry but the Enemies and Allies format was no utility. %95 of it could of been garnered from one's own imagination in two or three nights easy.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Thank you, sir!



This is exactly what I'm talking about.

The details would have codes to represent game elements (feats, skills) and have it all charted sideways.

I'm sorry but the Enemies and Allies format was no utility. %95 of it could of been garnered from one's own imagination in two or three nights easy.

I have a suggestion for you, which I've learned from my time working on the Middle Earth d20 conversion site (which has some generics, by the way, which I did): you should prime the pump. That is, whip up a batch of NPC stats and post 'em. I can't guarantee you'll get a huge response, but it'll help some. People seem to respond better when they see examples of what is being asked for.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm sorry but the Enemies and Allies format was no utility. %95 of it could of been garnered from one's own imagination in two or three nights easy.

I feel it has utility. Maybe someone could have done some of it in a few days, but the point is that it's for someone who doesn't want to waste time doing so.

The failing of the book is that it provides some good "generics," but they aren't OGC. Making them OGC would have established some kind of standard,w hich would have been very useful, especially for potential d20 publishers.

 

[GENEWEIGEL]

I think I need to have a "seminar" at next GenCon about how their is no acountabilty for taste in the real world but their is indeed an accountabilty for taste in a game that relies on presentation for suspension of disbelief.

Some of those characters if I had dragged into a game I would of been laughed out of town and fired as DM!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I don't really know which of those NPCs in E&A are so outrageous. While I would have liked a lot more stuff along the lines of the generic guards or the various rogues, even the more colorful ones didn't seem that outlandish, especially if you consider that D&D is a fantasy game set in a world with elves and dragons.