Anti-LotR

[Brown Jenkin]

Umm, no, Arwen (spelled with an "e", not an "i") shows up in Rivendell in FotR, she even has some lines where she talks to Frodo. [/B]

My appologies on the spelling, I am not at home and a bad speller anyway. Spellcheck is my friend. I don't remember her apearence but it has been a year since I read the book and apparently it was not very memorable (at least to me).

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Eowyn's brother does not die. Eowyn is sister to Eomer, who surivies the books and becomes King of the Riddermark.

Her cousin, Theodred dies, but that is off-stage. Her uncle, Theoden dies, but that is later in the story.

I stand corrected. I am a little confused right now. The whole Eomer being out of favor with Theoden is unclear right now. But my main point is still stands. Book II: Eowyn is facinated with Aragorn and I still feel that it was in part her being kept from the action that gives her the motivation to sneak along to the main battle. I am less concerned with changes to her than Arwen though.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

This is a bit of an esoteric point, but in LotR it's quite hard to divorce the power of an individual from the power of the land he/she inhabits. The powerful remake the land in their own image. We see that clearest with Mordor, and with Rivendell and Lorien. But Saruman, Bombadil, Cirdan Shipwright, the Paths of the Dead, Shelob's Lair, Fangorn, etc, are all places were powerful individuals make powerful places.

In fact, Gandalf is the ONLY powerful wanderer in the series, and it's enough to grant him a couple of names: Grey Pilgrim and Grey Wanderer.

In light of this, calling on Elrond's magic and the magic of the land are identical.

Of course, that's the book talking, and not the film. I'm pretty sure no one gets any of that from the film.

PS

Yes the powerful remake the land in thier image, but mostly they do that through normal physical means. The power that is Rivendell and Lorien however is explicitly stated as being the power of the rings and those that control them. It is Elrond (or Gandolf I don't remember exactly) who states that he (Elrond) made the flood. Even more to the point of it not being the powerfull who control the land but rather the rings they weild however is Galadrial's sadness in not being able to see Lothlorien in the summer or fall again since with the passing of the ring will come the passing of the forest as she knows it. The Eternal spring (or something to that effect) that is Lothlorien is directly tied to the rings of power.

Bombadill on the other hand does not remake the land, he is the land. Older than even the earth, Bombadill may talk and control individual creatures, but he revells in the land as it is. Otherwise the old forest would be alot nicer pace than it is.

Gandolf however is not the only powerfull wanderer. All the wizards but Sauruman are wanderers. It is Gandolf who is the only powerful wanderer who gets directly involved in the lives of the people.

 

[Storminator]

I stand corrected. I am a little confused right now. The whole Eomer being out of favor with Theoden is unclear right now. But my main point is still stands. Book II: Eowyn is facinated with Aragorn and I still feel that it was in part her being kept from the action that gives her the motivation to sneak along to the main battle. I am less concerned with changes to her than Arwen though.

Eowyn pines for Aragorn, but that's not why she stays out of the action. Maintaining the king's household while the men are in the field is her duty, and performing that duty is what keeps her out of the action.

She sneaks along with the army because she A) doesn't want to stay back (she has a whole speech about being caged), and B) assumes Aragorn dies on the Paths of the Dead. In other words, she has nothing to live for, and doesn't want to die without valor.

Incidently, I just reread the Battle of the Pelenor Fields, and Damn! I can't wait for that scene!

PS

 

[Storminator]

Yes the powerful remake the land in thier image, but mostly they do that through normal physical means. The power that is Rivendell and Lorien however is explicitly stated as being the power of the rings and those that control them. It is Elrond (or Gandolf I don't remember exactly) who states that he (Elrond) made the flood. Even more to the point of it not being the powerfull who control the land but rather the rings they weild however is Galadrial's sadness in not being able to see Lothlorien in the summer or fall again since with the passing of the ring will come the passing of the forest as she knows it. The Eternal spring (or something to that effect) that is Lothlorien is directly tied to the rings of power.

Not quite right. The continued precense of the powerful changes the land, and redefines it. It isn't just physical changes. It isn't just the pollution that makes Mordor a poisonous wasteland, it's that Sauron lives there.

It is true that Elrond and Galadrial have tied their lands fates to the rings, but those were both powerful places before the rings were used.

(I'm not arguing with you on Elrond creating the flood, I'm saying that calling on the magic of the land is, by extension, calling on Elrond's magic. The two are the same.)

Bombadill on the other hand does not remake the land, he is the land. Older than even the earth, Bombadill may talk and control individual creatures, but he revells in the land as it is. Otherwise the old forest would be alot nicer pace than it is.

Bombadil is the master of his land. That is explicitly stated. It is certain that area around Bombadil's home has a different character than nearby land. It's not because of what he's doing, it's because he's being.

Gandolf however is not the only powerfull wanderer. All the wizards but Sauruman are wanderers. It is Gandolf who is the only powerful wanderer who gets directly involved in the lives of the people.

Gandalf and Saruman are an order of magnitude above the other wizards. In the order of wizards there is Saruman, there is Gandalf, and there are the rest. Than means Gandalf is the only powerful wanderer. He's not the only powerful character, he's not the only wanderer, but he's the only one that's both.

PS

 

[Black Omega]

Not to be disagreeable, but...

My impression from the movie wasn't that Arwen caused the flood. she looked at the water, said some chants and the water level rose. And then this huge violent flood comes rushing around the corner and she looks over, startled, apparently not expecting that. For people not familiar with the book it's easy to overlook. For people familiar with the book and expecting Eleond to cause the flood, it's not at odds with that. It could have been made more obvious, of course.

 

[Tharkun]

Was the Cave Troll actually in the book? I don't remember but maybe it was an added bit.

 

[Villano]

I loved the movie. Its good.

But in my circle of friends I have:

-One that rates it about a 5 out of 10.
-Two that rate it about a 3 out of 10.

Those that give it the harshest criticism had the following to say as to what they thought hurt the film quality.

-Sweeping shots done at the wrong times made for bad viewing.
-Story pacing was horrible.
-No interest or care for characters like Merry and Pippin.

When I saw the film, I thought it was just okay. I don't regret seeing it, but I probably won't watch it again.

As a person who didn't love the movie, I have to agree with the points above. I'd also add that I felt that the music was too intrusive.

I honestly don't think that Jackson did that great a job on the film. The sweeping shots combined with the music made everything look ham-handed to me.

I also have to say that I hated the actor who portrayed the elf king. When I saw The Matrix, I wondered why he portrayed his character in such a weird way. Now I realize that that's really him!

P.S. Please don't flame me! I swear that, after the movie came out, there was a discussion on another website and all I said was, "I liked the film, but I didn't love it" and the next thing I know, I'm accused of being a Steven Seagal fan, hating Citizen Kane, having a short attention span, and not wanting to watch any movie that doesn't feature explosions every 2 minutes. Seriously.

 

[tmaaas]

Was the Cave Troll actually in the book? I don't remember but maybe it was an added bit.

Yes, it was, but it didn't play quite as visible a role as in the movie.

In the book, the Fellowship was attempting to close the door to Balin's Tomb and keep out the horde of orcs. The cave troll started to force it open. During this process, Boromir took a swing at it, but instead of hurting the troll, his sword was notched (showing the troll’s invulnerability to normal weapons). Frodo then stabbed it in the foot with Sting, which easily penetrated the troll’s skin and injured it. The troll withdrew momentarily, allowing the heroes to close and barricade the door. Gandalf then put a spell on the door which would keep it closed, but then the balrog appeared and broke Gandalf’s spell and so on.

Disclaimer: this is all by memory. I may have some details wrong.

 

[Welverin]

P.S. Please don't flame me! I swear that, after the movie came out, there was a discussion on another website and all I said was, "I liked the film, but I didn't love it" and the next thing I know, I'm accused of being a Steven Seagal fan, hating Citizen Kane, having a short attention span, and not wanting to watch any movie that doesn't feature explosions every 2 minutes. Seriously.

They just confused you with me.