Arcanist playtest

[ForeverSlayer]

True. Which is a very good change to the power, and I thoroughly approve.

That's not good! Why do you want to have a power that is easily avoidable? The whole point of the tactic is to have a class move the enemy into the zone, beginning of it's turn it takes X damage so it then decides to either move or stand there and take more damage. If the creature is going to move anyway, then it has already taken some damage before it has the chance to move.

The damage needs to stay at the beginning of the creatures turn in order to keep certain and effective tactics in the game.

 

[Oldtimer]

That's not good! Why do you want to have a power that is easily avoidable? The whole point of the tactic is to have a class move the enemy into the zone, beginning of it's turn it takes X damage so it then decides to either move or stand there and take more damage. If the creature is going to move anyway, then it has already taken some damage before it has the chance to move.

The damage needs to stay at the beginning of the creatures turn in order to keep certain and effective tactics in the game.

Sliding enemies into zones is ONE tactic. Not the ONLY tactic. Agreed, that particular tactic using Flaming Sphere is mostly nullified by the change. Other tactics are strengthened.

Also, regarding a movable zone like Flaming Sphere, you are still wrong in what happens after the enemy has taken damage at the start of its turn. It has no decision to make that influences whether it will take more damage.

And that's the whole point of this change. Yes, the spell will cause less damage in the long run. Maybe the end-of-turn damage should be upped a bit to compensate (this is a playtest; you can still suggest that to them). But the change trades assured damage against battlefield influence for this spell. A good trade, IMO. I have been playing Flaming Sphere like this for a year. It does work very well at the table, I promise.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

A lot of that terrain is nice fluff but is really not that important in actually play. For example a group of monsters standing in a circle that gives out +2 to hit is a poor tactic against most parties. Apart from cliff and wallls terrain is rarely stronger than that.

Mmmmm, I have to conclude that you misunderstand the nature of tactics. Tactics isn't about a +1 or a +2. Tactics is much more than that. It is about bringing into existence the situations which accrue advantages to you, and deny them to the other side. It also involves 'higher level' types of advantages such as concentration of firepower, and abstract advantages like initiative (in the tactical theoretical sense, not the game mechanics sense). In the real world it would also include concepts like morale, which in the game is hard to quantify since it is up to the DM.

Even fighters have plently of ways of moving the monsters around if it is important. Footwork Lure/Come and Get It. It is just not strong enough effect for a controller to gently encourage movement with an optional out and modest damage.

Yeah, I think there's a whole other dimension to tactics that you're missing. In fact most of what people call 'tactics' in 4e is just bonus mongering anyway. It is tactics in the sense that doing A, B, and then C gives you more damage, but it doesn't relate all that much to the more interesting aspects of true tactics.

So, for instance, using an FS to delay the arrival of one opponent in a spot where it can execute its plan could be a fine tactical objective and worth much more than the details of what square a monster is in, which a fighter could influence. If that extra turn gives the PCs on the spot a chance to make attacks on whatever monster they are concentrating on now without dealing with the other monster (say its OAs or conditions it might lay down if it were there) that is a real concrete tactical advantage that far outweighs a +2 somewhere. The best debuff is no attack at all for example.

Some of the zones do do damage on entering, but Flaming Sphere doesn't. Changing it to end of turn does negate this tactic.

I didn't actually claim it did, I was mentioning Stinking Cloud there IIRC. The point is none of this gets at the point, which is that the new FS motivates monsters to move, the old one doesn't in as many cases. New one is more about control, old one is more about damage. The point holds.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Sliding enemies into zones is ONE tactic. Not the ONLY tactic. Agreed, that particular tactic using Flaming Sphere is mostly nullified by the change. Other tactics are strengthened.

Also, regarding a movable zone like Flaming Sphere, you are still wrong in what happens after the enemy has taken damage at the start of its turn. It has no decision to make that influences whether it will take more damage.

And that's the whole point of this change. Yes, the spell will cause less damage in the long run. Maybe the end-of-turn damage should be upped a bit to compensate (this is a playtest; you can still suggest that to them). But the change trades assured damage against battlefield influence for this spell. A good trade, IMO. I have been playing Flaming Sphere like this for a year. It does work very well at the table, I promise.

How are you coming up with this? The decision is either move or take more damage. You are the one that is wrong in this regard.

Then adding end of turn to spells whose effect are damage is just plain wrong. Making it at the end of turn could make more sense on effects with conditions, or increase the damage by a lot.

Also, another tactic that is virtually eliminated is the intercept tactic with moveable zones. I used to use my zones to intercept enemies that I knew were hurting, or they were minions. I have a DM that uses lots and lots of minions in their games and this was a great tactic that would stop them dead in their tracks.

 

[keterys]

End of turn deals less damage than start of turn, certainly. If the power was underpowered to start, or only on par for power to start, then end of turn damage should be increased. If it was overpowered to start, then changing it to end of turn may be a much needed reduction in its power.

Regardless, end of turn is better for the health of the game overall, and I thoroughly approve of all damaging effects of that nature changing from start of turn to end of turn - and that applies to monsters as well as PCs, of course. I don't believe it's actually a "feature" that minions auto-die when they start their turn, nor that a PC can be at low health then start their turn and drop.

If they've overnerfed any of the powers (and I've no doubt that's true for some of them), then I would prefer that the "end of turn" change stick, but not necessarily some of the other reductions in power.

 

[Raikun]

How are you coming up with this? The decision is either move or take more damage. You are the one that is wrong in this regard.

Except in many cases they take the exact same damage whether or not they move.

Putting damage at end of turn gives them the decision to move or take more damage.

 

[keterys]

In fact, with the old flaming sphere, it's surprisingly common that _not moving_ lets you avoid the damage instead of the other way around, as the wizard moves it to a place with a greater concentration of foes, or to move it away from allies.

It's also not uncommon that because PCs can walk up to and stand next to a flaming sphere, they'll feel free to crowd around it to get their melee attacks in, and just tell the wizard to move it away before they go.

 

[Raikun]

Yep, I've seen that too, and it bugged the heck outta me. It just seems silly for people to run right up to a big ball of flame.

And really, what prompted us to change it ages ago, was the idea of this big ball of flame rolling around the room, with people and monsters jumping and diving to get out of the way of it. Having damage at End of Turn fits that idea so much better.

 

[Oldtimer]

How are you coming up with this? The decision is either move or take more damage. You are the one that is wrong in this regard.

I've explained this over and over. With start-of-turn damage, you take damage at the start of your turn. Then there is no more damage that turn. Moving or standing still will not change that. How is that so hard to comprehend?

Then adding end of turn to spells whose effect are damage is just plain wrong. Making it at the end of turn could make more sense on effects with conditions, or increase the damage by a lot.

Why? True, the purpose of the spell changes, but "plain wrong"? Seriously?

Also, another tactic that is virtually eliminated is the intercept tactic with moveable zones. I used to use my zones to intercept enemies that I knew were hurting, or they were minions. I have a DM that uses lots and lots of minions in their games and this was a great tactic that would stop them dead in their tracks.

I have no idea what you mean by this. "intercept enemies"? Yes, the old Flaming Sphere was a great minion killer, if that's what you mean. Too, good in my view. Now it has been repurposed to a minion mover. Again, more control for less damage.

We have been over this for page after page now. The change to Flaming Sphere will make it less of a blaster spell and more of a control spell. Almost everyone can see that. Some might object to the change, some might like it, to each his own. But I don't understand why we are arguing as to the nature of the change.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Yep, I've seen that too, and it bugged the heck outta me. It just seems silly for people to run right up to a big ball of flame.

And really, what prompted us to change it ages ago, was the idea of this big ball of flame rolling around the room, with people and monsters jumping and diving to get out of the way of it. Having damage at End of Turn fits that idea so much better.

Sometimes you have to get burned in order to learn your lesson. With the old Flaming Sphere you can have damage and control.

All I am saying is in our games it has always worked with no problems what so ever. I have played a Wizard since day one and my character is a control machine. I can have two zones going at the same time and my team mates move the enemies into them.

Ever moved a Flaming Sphere into a group of enemies and watch as they run because they got flamed?

About too good for minions, well it is a Daily spell and it does less damage than a Scorching Burst spell, so what's the difference?

About intercepting enemies, well it's just what I said. I have had minions and enemies on their last leg attempt to gang up on me because I got moved all alone. Well I knew it was their turn after mine and I needed to do something quick. I already had my Flaming Sphere up so what I did was move the sphere to intercept them and when their turn came up they immediately took the damage which killed the minions in range and bloodied another non-minion. Well instead of 4 guys coming at me, it was only one.

I understand that everyone's mileage will vary, but my group is the one that I have to look out for and these changes have proven to be a negative influence on our game.