Armour Dilemma: Am I Wrong Here?

[Valiantheart]

Its a good thing the Duke was a mage huh?

I was wondering when the Duke had time to change out of his night clothes and into his robes.

 

[Marshall]

No. You just can't deal with it.

Uh No. Heavy Armor is only useful when youre flat footed. Ie at most one round a combat.
I can get an AC5 light armor, heavy maxes at 8. 3 points of AC, for that you lose running and 1/3 of your base move, gain huge penaties to skill checks and need an eternity to put it on and gain the bonuses.
If I want that +3 AC I'm nearly always better off just wearing light armor and working on DEX enhancing items.

If I want to "deal with it", I'll have to start re-writing the whole armor rules.

Ah, so you support verbally abusing the GM for actually enforcing rules in the book, and actually having the enemies use intelligent tactics that fit them.

*shrug* Whatever.

Gee, I took it for granted that the 30+ other posters had allready stated that the verbal abuse is never justified. Your bad attitude amazes me.

 

[fusangite]

Its a good thing the Duke was a mage huh?

I was wondering when the Duke had time to change out of his night clothes and into his robes.

The duke is an elf sorceror, not a wizard. The characters have known the duke to be such an individual since episode 1 (the episode about which we are talking was episode 41 of the campaign). The sorceror in the party did not choose this NPC out of the blue; he chose him because he was the highest-level spellcaster in the vicinity of the combat.

As far as I understand elves, they don't sleep. As far as I understand sorcerors, their big mechanical advantage is that they're almost always equally prepared. (Case in point, the sorceror who sought the duke's aid.)

One last thing: people are suggesting that I enforced the armour donning rules because they reflected reality. Bzzt. Wrong. I enforced them because they were specifically codified rules in the book. If there is no rule on point, I make a judgement call. If, however, there is a rule in the books that specifically speaks to a situtation, whether it makes sense or not, I enforce the rule. In my view, a game in which the players do not know, from minute to minute, which rules are really in effect is an unfair game in which people cannot make reasonable tactical decisions because the goal posts are constantly shifting.

So, to reiterate, if the rules are silent on something, I make a judgement call about it, which is almost always favourable to the players gut if the rules directly speak to something, unless there is a known, agreed-upon house rule, the rules, as articulated in the books are in effect.

While I can understand the viewpoint of some, like Tsyr, who have a stylistic disagreement with me setting up the encounter the way I did, I really have no sympathy for those who argue that the DM should be able to, arbitrarily and without notice, decide which rules should be in force when.

Some people have also stated that they think heavy armour is a bad thing because you cannot sleep in it and it slows you down. Fair enough, I guess but it was my players' decision, not mine, to make it their primary armour.

 

[Darth Shoju]

?

Originally posted by Numion
"You're screwing your players because you enforce realism in the armor dressing to the point, but let your NPC react with unrealistic speed to the same situation."

I don't believe he was having his NPC react with unrealistic speed:

Originally posted by Fusangite
"Time to fly to the ducal palace while hasted: 2 rounds (it was 120 yards away)
*snip*
Time to say "The vampires are attacking the now and killing the city guard. Can you help us?": 1 round (I just timed myself saying these words -- it took 4 seconds)
Time for the duke to cast Haste and Fly: 1 round
Time to fly back to the combat from inside the palace: 3 rounds

Given that the city had just held a public meeting called by the duke, a mere 5 hours before about the vampire threat and stationed an extra 80 troops on the earthwork walls around the tower because of what they perceived to be an impending disaster, it was not difficult to explain to the duke either that this event was happening nor the urgency of responding to said event."

It seems to me that the Duke, having just discussed the potential vampire attack at the council would likely be awake. After all, vampires pretty much have to attack at night (unless they take some heavy measures to do so in the daytime), so he really could have been anticipating getting word of the attack, thus he was ready to go with little notice. Since the battle wasn't far away, he would have likely heard the explosion too. When the PC came in and gave his warning I would expect it would have been little surprise to the Duke, who then hasted himself up and flew to the battleground.

Not only is this within the rules but I don't see how it is a bad encounter. The PCs had reason to believe an attack would take place, and some of them seemed to be uninterested in preparing for that (as far as their armour was concerned). Even after the attack begun, it seems they wouldn't have been in over their heads rushing in without armour as they had prepared many spells that would be perfect for the encounter, and wouldn't have had to face all of the vampires at one time anyway. In fact, their spell selection does seem to indicate that they did anticipate an attack yet they weren't prepped as far as armour. IMO they just assumed they'd be able to don their armour in no time, which was their mistake, not the DM's.

 

[Valiantheart]

As far as I understand elves, they don't sleep. As far as I understand sorcerors, their big mechanical advantage is that they're almost always equally prepared. (Case in point, the sorceror who sought the duke's aid.)

Elves enter a reverie state. It is cross between meditation and sleep, but it is effectively sleep. An Elf requires 4 hours of reverie compared to other humanoids 8 hours of sleep to gain rest from fatigue BUT all races require 8 hours of rest in order to memorize spell/regain spell slots. So while an elf does not need 8 hours of reverie to recover from fatigue, he would need another 4 hours of relative rest and solitude before being able to regain any spells he used from the previous day.

To further clarify, an elf would need 4 additional hours after their reverie of non taxing relaxation to recharge. Any thing strenuous, like combat or running for instance prevents them from regaining spells.

What he does not need is the 1 hour of study a wizard needs to regain his spells, though some argue Sorcs need 1 hour of meditation to recharge.

 

[LazarusLong42]

Oh my.

Well, I'd been following this discussion because it was interesting, and didn't feel I had much to contribute, but it seems to have turned into a "let's nitpick fusangite's DM style" match in the last two pages.

So: fusangite, add me to the list of people who agree with your side here. Including what you've explained the last two pages.

70 people into a building through a 20' entrance in 30 seconds? Easily. Assuming ideal conditions, these people are moving around 40 ft/s (assuming armor and double move), four abreast. In formation, that's 32 people per round. 70 people in... about 14 seconds. They're under a mass suggestion so you should be able to get them into formation pretty quickly as well.

You said you gave them closer to 60 seconds to herd them inside. That seems reasonable to me.

Time for getting the Duke seems reasonable as well... and unlike so many other people's assumptions, it seems the PCs only got the Duke, not any of his staff. That would have taken considerably longer, I agree, but it's just not what happened.

And, of course, finally, it seems that fusangite talked with his players and they're OK with what happened at this point. Possibly said player was just having a bad night, though his prior behavior makes that seem... somewhat unlikely.

My 2 cp.

 

[Numion]

Re: ?

I don't believe he was having his NPC react with unrealistic speed:

Originally posted by Fusangite
"Time to fly to the ducal palace while hasted: 2 rounds (it was 120 yards away)
*snip*
Time to say "The vampires are attacking the now and killing the city guard. Can you help us?": 1 round (I just timed myself saying these words -- it took 4 seconds)
Time for the duke to cast Haste and Fly: 1 round
Time to fly back to the combat from inside the palace: 3 rounds

Thats realistic, in your opinion? IMO it's quite clearly not. By the rules, I guess, but is following rules to a letter all the time a trademark of a great DM?

Not only is this within the rules but I don't see how it is a bad encounter.

Seeing that this thread has gone on for five pages, his player became very angry and the playing session suffered because of the encounter, I wouldn't say that it was a very good encounter either.

 

[sithramir]

hmm

I just wanted to state that the DM was quite fair.

Yes he took away a big advantage from some players but the vampires level drain is a touch attack. His armour is useless to that anyways. The idea was spectacular because his players had to make a morale decision.

The fact is your paladin character who got mad probably would claim to be the guy who wears his full plate while walking through town taking a half an hour to get down a street at his movement while its 90 degrees (30 celsius) out right? Doubtful and unrealistic and the character should realize that although its a fantasy world some obvious things are kept realistic in them.

My campaigns you wouldn't have your armour on all the time because my characters role play. part of their role playing is "I can't wait to get out of this heavy armor for a drink" because they don't worry that they lose 8 ac by doing it but that it makes sense with how their characters work.

Those of you who are saying how he hsouldn't put them at such a disadvantage might as well not let monsters come next to the wizards. He can't cast spells without their attacks of opportunity coming his way and his advantage of blasting things from afar in battle is ruined. Just cause its a unique case to the fighter doesn't mean ti doesn't happen ALL the time to others who just accept it because it makes sense.

 

[Darth Shoju]

armour question

Originally posted by Numion
"By the rules, I guess, but is following rules to a letter all the time a trademark of a great DM?"

Yes, I think the DM should stick to the rules as often as possible, making exceptions only where the rules are unclear. This isn't in an attempt to be anal, but to keep things fair. What if one of the other armour wearing players had planned for a night attack and had slept in light armour or made some other preparations? Would it be fair to nullify his foresight and preparation by letting the player who didn't prepare don his armour instantly? I understand that occasionally a rules-lawyer DM can hinder the fun and spontanaity of a role-playing moment, but in this case he had to stick to the rules to keep things fair. What if he had played fast and loose with the rounds and made a real mistake in the timing, one that was to the detriment of the whole party? (and I'm not just talking about having 3 of them away from the battle all nice and safe) Then his players would have had a legitimate reason to be upset.

"Seeing that this thread has gone on for five pages, his player became very angry and the playing session suffered because of the encounter, I wouldn't say that it was a very good encounter either."

I don't see how the length of this thread reflects on his quality as a DM. The player in question also gets angry at having to roll a 16 on an attack roll, so I don't think that reflects on Fusangite's DMing abilities either. He has said himself that the other 2 players who were left out of the combat weren't upset and one even agreed with him, so IMO the reason the session suffered was because one player lost his temper over his own decision to stay and don his armour while innocents perished.

 

[Valiantheart]

by sithramir

Yes he took away a big advantage from some players but the vampires level drain is a touch attack. His armour is useless to that anyways. The idea was spectacular because his players had to make a morale decision.

A vampires energy drain attack is NOT a touch attack. Corporeal undead must make a successful standard melee attack in order to use their energy drain.