D&D 5E Assassins, Alignment, and Archetypes

[TheCosmicKid]

Take AssCreed. Altair can’t, Ezio can sometimes, if you’re very good, and Connor can fight a horde of redcoats singlehanded and limps halfway through Delaware or whatever at th e end of the game while bleeding out, because he is a force of nature.

When assessing the characters' abilities we have to take into account the degree to which the Assassin's Creed games are single-player power fantasies, and D&D is not. The franchise itself presents a very different picture of assassins once it introduces multiplayer.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

When assessing the characters' abilities we have to take into account the degree to which the Assassin's Creed games are single-player power fantasies, and D&D is not. The franchise itself presents a very different picture of assassins once it introduces multiplayer.

No, I don’t really think we do.
Conan is also a individualistic power fantasy. Aside from his being a high level character, he isn’t all that hard to model in dnd. (Other than the fact you have to roll high stats)

Altair, Ezio Auditore, and Ratonhnhaké:ton are all entirely within the bounds of a dnd party.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

No, I don’t really think we do.
Conan is also a individualistic power fantasy. Aside from his being a high level character, he isn’t all that hard to model in dnd. (Other than the fact you have to roll high stats)

Altair, Ezio Auditore, and Ratonhnhaké:ton are all entirely within the bounds of a dnd party.

That's not what I'm getting at. We shouldn't look at Ezio's ability to slaughter small armies of mooks and conclude that that's what an assassin class should be good at. Some things like his lethal ripostes are mechanics of the game genre more than assassin abilities -- Kratos, Batman, Link, the Darksiders Horsemen, etc. all have the same counterattack system in their own franchises.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's not what I'm getting at. We shouldn't look at Ezio's ability to slaughter small armies of mooks and conclude that that's what an assassin class should be good at. Some things like his lethal ripostes are mechanics of the game genre more than assassin abilities -- Kratos, Batman, Link, the Darksiders Horsemen, etc. all have the same counterattack system in their own franchises.

I never suggested the assassin should be able to take on armies of mooks by themselves, I used the assassins as examples of 3 varying degrees of direct combat ability, as part of an argument that assassins in general should vary in how direct combat capable they are.

And the riposte is absolutely a fitting ability, which is all it needs to be. It’s also something few dnd characters can reliably do, and it makes the assassin dangerous in a melee in a way that others just aren’t.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

And the riposte is absolutely a fitting ability, which is all it needs to be. It’s also something few dnd characters can reliably do, and it makes the assassin dangerous in a melee in a way that others just aren’t.

I disagree. It makes the assassin reactively dangerous when they, perhaps more than any other class, should be proactively dangerous. An assassin, a "blade in the dark", is at their strongest when you have no idea they're there. If you're facing them and swinging a sword at them, that is... exactly the opposite of that. When that regrettable situation occurs, it's not time for the assassin to strike, it's time for them to back off and think about a new plan. So something like "move half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks" would be a fitting reaction. But a riposte? That's for battlemasters and berserkers who stride boldly into the melee and dare you to come at them bro.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I disagree. It makes the assassin reactively dangerous when they, perhaps more than any other class, should be proactively dangerous. An assassin, a "blade in the dark", is at their strongest when you have no idea they're there. If you're facing them and swinging a sword at them, that is... exactly the opposite of that. When that regrettable situation occurs, it's not time for the assassin to strike, it's time for them to back off and think about a new plan. So something like "move half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks" would be a fitting reaction. But a riposte? That's for battlemasters and berserkers who stride boldly into the melee and dare you to come at them bro.

Eh, I'm done with this particular argument. The entire notion that assassins should be made to run away and find shadows to strike from is bunk, IMO. Assassins should be trained to fight, because no plan is so perfect that it cannot fail, and fights will happen, even to the absolute apex paragon of assassination. Period. You don't fail to kill your target simply because the vaguries of luck and timing caused them to see you before you were able to strike the killing blow from hiding. You train in efficient killing well enough that their every move against you creates opportunities for you to kill them.

And "reactive" deadliness isn't counter to "proactive" deadliness, even in balance terms. What matters in balance terms is deadliness over the course of a round, combat, and day.

Watch John Wick, or Jason Bourne, or any other assassin movie. When an enemy or mark tries to attack them, they counter and the enemy or mark dies. Often, the counter and the killing stroke are basically the same motion.

There is no such thing as "not getting in fights". The assassin is deadly in or out of a fight. THey're deadly when put on the defensive, and when allowed the offensive.

Assassins should be even deadlier when they can watch and wait and strike at the perfect moment, which is what Shrouds do. They should also be deadly the rest of the time.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Assassins should be trained to fight, because no plan is so perfect that it cannot fail, and fights will happen, even to the absolute apex paragon of assassination. Period.

This is already covered by proficiency with martial weapons. Giving them a riposte ability doesn't just say "trained to fight", it says "trained to fight as well as a battlemaster".

And "reactive" deadliness isn't counter to "proactive" deadliness, even in balance terms. What matters in balance terms is deadliness over the course of a round, combat, and day.

Put it this way: if you give the assassin a class feature at level X which triggers when they are attacked, then they are not getting a class feature at level X which they could use to kill their target proactively.

Watch John Wick, or Jason Bourne, or any other assassin movie. When an enemy or mark tries to attack them, they counter and the enemy or mark dies. Often, the counter and the killing stroke are basically the same motion.

We're back to the "any class can be an 'assassin' " problem. Maybe John Wick and Jason Bourne fight so well because they're... fighters? What makes you think that a new class is most appropriate to capture what these characters do? (Apart from the gunplay and other accouterments of modernity, which I think we can agree are outside the scope of this thread.)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is already covered by proficiency with martial weapons. Giving them a riposte ability doesn't just say "trained to fight", it says "trained to fight as well as a battlemaster".


Put it this way: if you give the assassin a class feature at level X which triggers when they are attacked, then they are not getting a class feature at level X which they could use to kill their target proactively.


We're back to the "any class can be an 'assassin' " problem. Maybe John Wick and Jason Bourne fight so well because they're... fighters? What makes you think that a new class is most appropriate to capture what these characters do? (Apart from the gunplay and other accouterments of modernity, which I think we can agree are outside the scope of this thread.)

Yeah, honestly, we’re done on this topic.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

That's exactly my take on the assassin too. I think the ''one shot, one kill'' assassin is fun, but a slayer able to actually finish the target mostly on its own quickly if the first hit isnt enough is a must. So yeah, somewhere between a fighter and a rogue.

 

[Fenris-77]

I don't get this thread. It's been made pretty plain which fantasy trope is being worked. That might not be everyone's pick, but that's the one we're working. If you really prefer a different look, feel free to go build it.