D&D General Attacks With Two Weapons, Game Design, And the Evolution of D&D

S'mon

Legend
Other than ... the fact that the alternate rule that people keep citing .... doesn't exist until 2e (and the later RC)?

Or that contemporaneous sources (such as the Dragon Article from 1982) indicate that the natural reading of the rule is the correct one?

Or any one of innumerable other reasons? The reason I put that in there (and most of the essay) is there are only so many times I can respond to someone saying, "But wait, how do you know it isn't just +1 attack per round" when that rule did not exist until the 2e PHB.

It makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How do I know, for sure, that a rule that didn't exist for 10 years ... didn't retroactively apply? I don't know ... trust me. I guess.

I'm asking about "TWF doubles attacks" - this doesn't seem to be stated anywhere? Maybe in a Dragon article?

My reading of the 1e DMG (sans 2e) was that TWF with dagger or hand axe gave +1 attack, but I'm not too surprised to learn it doesn't actually say how many extra attacks you get, if any. BTW in Classic by default the answer is 0, AIR says so in Dawn of the Emperors.
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Other than ... the fact that the alternate rule that people keep citing .... doesn't exist until 2e (and the later RC)?

Or that contemporaneous sources (such as the Dragon Article from 1982) indicate that the natural reading of the rule is the correct one?

Or any one of innumerable other reasons? The reason I put that in there (and most of the essay) is there are only so many times I can respond to someone saying, "But wait, how do you know it isn't just +1 attack per round" when that rule did not exist until the 2e PHB.*

It makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How do I know, for sure, that a rule that didn't exist for 10 years ... didn't retroactively apply? I don't know ... trust me. I guess. shrug ;)
To me, the biggest factor is that doubling your attacks seems so strong by my modern standards that I'd expect to see a positive statement of the rule (your second weapon gets as many attacks as the first); judging what rules meant by 1978 standards is really difficult.

Not that I think it's wrong, of course, I never played 1e, it's just weird not to see it expressed definitively.
 


Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
To me, the biggest factor is that doubling your attacks seems so strong by my modern standards that I'd expect to see a positive statement of the rule (your second weapon gets as many attacks as the first); judging what rules meant by 1978 standards is really difficult.

Not that I think it's wrong, of course, I never played 1e, it's just weird not to see it expressed definitively.

That was one of the main reasons I wrote this- it only seems odd if you aren't thinking in the same terms. We all tend to read rules in a certain way and carry baggage into it.

Prior to concepts like Weapon Specialization, the idea that the doubling of attacks was "Overpowered" would be laughable when those attacks would be with a dagger or handaxe, especially given the tradeoffs and that it was a long time before you got extra attacks.

Sometimes, I feel like I'm repeating myself?
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Third, and most importantly, defense really mattered in 1e. We are now used to the whole "whac-a-mole" and "attrition of hit points" style of play, but in 1e, the best way to survive was to not get hit. So (ignoring the parry rules for now) when you gave up a shield as a fighter, it was a big deal. Because magic shields were a dime-a-dozen in 1e. Every low-level module had +1 and +2 shields practically littering the ground like peanut shells at a baseball game, and it was not uncommon at mid-levels to get a +3 or +4 shield. Which meant that by the time you were really benefitting as a fighter from the extra attacks, you were trading 5 points of AC. Which was massive.
This part strikes me as worth expounding upon in some future thread. Personally, I can remember having an impression that "sword and board" fighters were a poor choice compared to using either a two-handed weapon or dual-wielding, but I can't remember where I got that idea from (my guess is PHBR1 The Complete Fighter's Handbook, what with specialization and all).
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
This part strikes me as worth expounding upon in some future thread. Personally, I can remember having an impression that "sword and board" fighters were a poor choice compared to using either a two-handed weapon or dual-wielding, but I can't remember where I got that idea from (my guess is PHBR1 The Complete Fighter's Handbook, what with specialization and all).

I definitely will do that- it was a common perception in my area in 1e, but I'll probably have to do the math.

Also, I forgot to add this for people interested in the DMG text. It has to do with the weird phrasing for "attack routines" on DMG 62-3 (emphasis mine):

When one or more creatures involved in combat are permitted to use their attack routines twice or more often during the round, then the following initiative determinants are employed. When the attack routine may be used twice, then allow the side with this advantage to attack FIRST and LAST with those members of its group who have this advantage. If it is possessed by both parties, the initiative roll determines which group strikes FIRST and THIRD, which group strikes SECOND and LAST. If one or both groups have members allowed only one attack routine, it will always fall in the middle of the other attacks, the order determined by dicing for initiative, when necessary. If one party has the ability to employ its attack routines thrice, then the other party dices for initiative to see if it, or the multi-routine group, strikes first in the mid-point of the round. Extrapolate for routines which occur four or more times in a round by following the method above. Note that a routine is the attack or attacks usual to the creature concerned, i.e. a weapon (or weapons) for a character, a claw/claw/bite routine for a bear (with incidental; damage assessed as it occurs - the hug, for exomple). A 12th level fighter is allowed attack routines twice in every odd numbered melee round, for example, and this moves up to three per round if a haste spell is cast upon the fighter. Damage from successful attacks is assessed when the "to hit" score is made and damage determined, the creature so taking damage having to survive it in order to follow its attack routine.

I don't know how much more clear it could be!

Well, I do know ... someone other than Gygax could have written it. But still. Can people stop citing the 2e rule already? :)
 

Well, you have your "I am absolutely right and cannot be refuted" idea of what 1e rules are, but legions of players didn't agree with your interpretation, lets just leave it at that. You can try to dismiss them all, but you will never overcome the sheer murkiness of the AD&D rules (especially 1e, but 2e is pretty unclear as well). It is probably not worth rehashing this argument, though in brief many groups simply interpreted TWF in 1e to mean you got one extra attack PER ROUND. This is perfectly consistent with D&DG, Drow, etc. Yes, Roger Moore is in your camp, and nobody disputes that was a common interpretation, just that it is FAR from the only one!

You dismiss the optimization value of TWF in the original rules under your interpretation (or even our more limited one except at high levels). DEX is not the dump off stat for fighters which you make it out to be, if you take a really sophisticated view of things. We played vast numbers of hours of 1e, probably several thousand hours before 1980 even (I played every day at a club that had 100's of players from 1977 to 1980). So we may have been a bit unusual in our level of focus on the rules, but still...

DEX will get you out of trouble a lot better than CON will, unless you are a dwarf (obviously). It adds to your AC, and thus effectively to a lot of situations where you'd need to avoid poison and other nastiness. It can also apply in a lot of uncodified situations. So it is a really good defensive stat, and avoiding damage is better than a CON bonus, certainly a lot better at lower levels.

And then we come to OFFENSE. First of all, missile fire is greatly superior to melee. Not always available, but when the other guy cannot hurt you back, and you can move and retreat easily, its gold. DEX improves your missile fire (later 'strength bows' became a thing, which allowed STR to add a damage bonus, assuming your DM allowed them, though they were a bit expensive and most magic bows don't have that attribute). So there is that, plus the reaction adjustment, meaning you get to STRIKE FIRST most of the time with a high DEX. This is also gold, a dead guy cannot hurt you, make him dead before he even gets a swing, gold.

Now, think about TWF. That extra attack, granted it is a d6 weapon, is still effective. With an 18 in DEX it is barely penalized at all. So, yeah, an 18/nn% STR is pretty tempting, but gauntlets are a thing, and not super rare, plus there's that nn% role, which is often low (1-50% is all the same bonus). Unless you role better than 50% an extra attack for d6 will give you about the same DPR. Yes, you don't get your +1 for shield (sometimes) to AC, but you DO get an AC bonus, which is not limited to 1-3 attacks from a certain angle per round. So, are you really giving up much by putting that 18 in DEX?

You mention shields and magic shields. Again, good for SOME situations, but there's always another PC in the party who can use it just as well as you can. I never encountered the "shield like peanut shells" thing, magic shields were a thing, you would be likely to get one at some point. Also magic armor, rings, bracers, cloaks, etc. which are all things that showed up at some degree of frequency and can grant similar bonuses. So, yes, you personally MIGHT be giving up a bit of AC (usually 1 point in my experience) but you already GAINED up to 4 points!

And there certainly are magical daggers and hand axes, though perhaps less common than magical longswords, sure. However, you can still wield the magical longsword! The dagger/axe is in the off hand anyway. Sure, there may be a situation where it isn't worth using against some large creature, maybe, though that is pretty situational.

I would note that my Ranger, a completely 1e character, has Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and wields a highly magical bastard sword in one hand, and a magical hand axe in the other, and indeed has an 18 DEX (and a magical longbow/some magic arrows too). It is a classic optimization, and the character was stupid deadly, which is the only way you survived in the murder hole that was most of the campaign. Heck, the whole character's main characterization was wiping out the Demogorgon cultists who murderized all the other members of his first party. I think that character was sole survivor of SEVERAL wipe outs. We never missed a beat on optimization, for sure.

Of course, you could go the high CON or high STR route also, or be stupid fortunate and have 2 or 3 high stats and have your cake and eat it too. STR at least is the only one where there are items to increase it. I won't really disagree that STR as the high stat is the obvious choice, and a good one. CON is more of a nice thing for dwarves or at high levels where the +3 or +4 (yeah, how often) can stack up a whole bunch. Low level PCs don't really gain much from a CON bonus. DEX I've already outlined. In our understanding of the rules DEX was pretty much the 'god stat' not STR or CON!

So, for the rest, you are right, UA borked things good. If you used Weapon Specialization then TWF went from a pretty good optimization for say 50% of fighters and all thieves and some wizards, to ridiculously optimum. You could cancel out most of the TWF penalty with DEX, and then build on top of that, AND your missile attack rate increased too! It was broken, just like ALL of UA, all broken. Doesn't even take the silly 9d6 method to make it broken, its just broken.

So, yeah, 2e absolutely clarified the rules and set a fixed, and lesser, increased attack rate for TWF. Given that it still incorporated most of the Specialization rule, TWF was still really good. In fact overall I think it is still better in 2e than in 1e, and given the relaxation of the restrictions on off-hand weapon, that much better. 2e hand axe machine guns are definitely a thing, though I think that level of specialization is a bit limiting overall and probably more of a trick build.
 



One small intervention. The haste spell double the number of attacks you make on a particular round. It does not increase your attack rate. The fighter will not go from 3/2 to 3/1 . He will do 2 attacks one round, and the next he will do four. Which might look like 3/1 but it is not. The difference is a slim one, but it can mean a lot with certain magical items.
 

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