D&D 5E Avoiding High Level Play - Player or DM Preference?

[Oofta]

I have kinda more had the opposite issue in that 5e is designed to go 1-20 and fairly fast, and (unlike 3e IME) plays smoothly 1 to 20. But then you are at 20 and there is not a lot of support; I am running an E20 game with the DMG Epic Boons system and it works well, but is not as satisfying as levelling up I think. And monsters - well how many times can I reskin a Kraken?

Also, as others have said, 5-10 remains the sweet spot in terms of the traditional adventuring experience. So I am thinking if maybe I should be looking more to an old school BX-style ethos of playing 1-10 as the adventurer levels and looking at 11-14 as 'Endgame', for politics, war and territory development. In contrast to 5e's RAW XP system this will require much slower advancement after 10th, and discouraging the notion that PCs will reach 20th.

I'm also wondering about the possibility of E10 play and having PCs stay in the 'hero not superhero' zone indefinitely. Maybe for a grittier campaign.

I did epic in 4E and after a while the story just got weird. For me you can only ratchet up the threat level so far before you're no longer playing a standard D&D campaign. Sure for a while you're fighting demons and what not but what's next?

 

[robus]

But high-level play requires a much deeper campaign setting in which players can participate in political intrigue that alters the course of the campaign world. Most DMs aren't going to be too interested in that and many who are quickly discover they're simply out of their depth trying to track the motivations, aspirations, etc of hundreds of influential NPCs and the Game of Thrones type maneuverings high level play requires.

I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case. It really depends on the players. Mine, for example. find the political stuff to be very boring and much prefer exploration and mystery. And guess what? That stuff still works really well at high levels. They’re having a blast on the new unexpected course our campaign has taken and that’s because they don’t know what’s coming next.

So I’d say, alternatively, one has to keep up the element of surprise (something I was failing at before admittedly) but now that I’m freed from an adventure path remix, I can work at surprising both my players and myself. Fun!

 

[S'mon]

I did epic in 4E and after a while the story just got weird. For me you can only ratchet up the threat level so far before you're no longer playing a standard D&D campaign. Sure for a while you're fighting demons and what not but what's next?

I ran 4e from 1 to 29, killing Orcus in the final battle. 4e was designed to have Orcus/Demogorgon/Lolth as campaign end boss at level 30. My main feeling was the Epic Tier was terribly slow, with battles edging over 3 hours at the end. Not really an issue in 5e; even running text chat online I can resolve a big E20 fight in a couple hours.

 

[Oofta]

I ran 4e from 1 to 29, killing Orcus in the final battle. 4e was designed to have Orcus/Demogorgon/Lolth as campaign end boss at level 30. My main feeling was the Epic Tier was terribly slow, with battles edging over 3 hours at the end. Not really an issue in 5e; even running text chat online I can resolve a big E20 fight in a couple hours.

Speed of play was an issue at high level in 4E for us as well, it got in the way of telling a story. I find that 5E plays better at levels up to 20 (the highest I've played), although after a while we did just go to average damage for everything. Even made a charts for the guy that was bad at math to help him speed up his fighter.

Maybe it's more that I can only think of a handful of campaign threads for epic. Killing Orcus is great, but what's next? Kill Asmodeus? Start making up Arch Fey to fight?

Which may be part of the lack of high level play. If people know they're going to retire their PCs at some point, when does it make the most sense to do that. Which is going to vary by group.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think that after level ten "gaining a level" becomes routine, and loses it's excitement.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yep, newly acquired class abilities and spells pop up out of the blue, really powerful stuff sometimes that you don't see coming. It can be annoying, but the players sure do love the stuff. And I've done high level, I just don't like it. My players don't like either, it removes itself from the traditional low to mid fantasy mold and skyrockets to a supers game.

I remember some years back though, there was a guy on here who was running a 20th level 4th edition campaign - a game I hated - but his story hour thread was SO utterly enthralling, exciting and deep, I was amazed how someone could actually pull that off with 4e. His talent was beyond mine, no doubt.

My AoW 5E campaign went to 20th (+ several epic boons) over 4 years of weekly play. There were multiple artifacts and legendary items in play at the end.

The party could all fly (Warlock on a broom, Druid [in earth elemental form] via a magic item, Swashbuckler via paired magic swords, Cleric/ Paladin via winged boots etc) shoot bolts of energy or whatever, teleport to the planes, true Resurrection, telepathically talk to each other, and be general bad asses.

They werent door kicking bar hopping mercenaries anymore, they were literally the Avengers.

It was actually awesome.

Zero to Hero is why players play the game. Let them I say. Those are the campaigns that those players will be talking about for the rest of their lives. And that's kind of why you DM!

You've just gotta hang in there as DM to gain the experience to know what you're doing. The first few times it will be a train wreck. But dont quit in frustration; gain experience doing it and it's bloody epic when you learn how to do it right.

 

[Vael]

It'd also be helpful if there were more high level adventures. Outside of Tyranny of Dragons, which was underwhelming, are there any higher level 5e modules? How high do all the printed books go?

 

[pogre]

I have kinda more had the opposite issue in that 5e is designed to go 1-20 and fairly fast, and (unlike 3e IME) plays smoothly 1 to 20. But then you are at 20 and there is not a lot of support; I am running an E20 game with the DMG Epic Boons system and it works well, but is not as satisfying as levelling up I think. And monsters - well how many times can I reskin a Kraken?

That's where my campaign is heading as well. I want to keep the campaign going until the players are ready to retire their characters.

I have purchased "Epic Characters" by Marching Modron Press to extend PC levels to 30. It reads OK, but we will see how it is in play. I also purchased "Finders Keepers" by Janek Sielicki and although I will make a few changes I think it is one of the better high level adventures I have read. Again, we will see how it plays.

Has your E20 game used any published adventures you have liked or taken parts from? Have you seen any resources or used any resources for epic level monsters that you would recommend?

 

[S'mon]

Has your E20 game used any published adventures you have liked or taken parts from? Have you seen any resources or used any resources for epic level monsters that you would recommend?

I'm currently running Shattered Star - Dead Heart of Xin converted from Pathfinder, see Varisia: Curse of the Crimson Throne, Runelords of the Shattered Star

I convert a lot of the Pathfinder monsters myself, as well as using Tome of Beasts and Sandy Peterson's 5e Cthulu Mythos book, which has some ridiculously deadly stuff like the Flying Polyps, never mind actual Great Old Ones! Primeval Thule 5e also has some good stats for Mythos critters. But the main thing for me is converting over the PF stat block to 5e, with a few tricks like 5e AC and other DCs = (0.5 x PF AC/DC) + 5, and halving stats over 20. It's generally much quicker to convert a PF stat block to 5e than to read & understand it fully, since I ignore most PF Feats and other heavy crunch elements. I cap DCs at 30, keeping most to around 25, and I cap to-hit bonuses at +20 with most kept to around +15, or for monsters whatever derives from Proficiency Bonus + Attack Bonus. I tend to increase hp +50%, but anything from keeping as-is to +100% can work depending on the monster. Damage is generally increased +50%, except for spell damage.

 

[Zardnaar]

When I convert Pathfinder I look at the CR and sub in the 5E equivalent or a similar monster with similar CR.

Ad hoc any skill checks.

Currently mining the Mummy's Mask.

They also good for lifting maps, plots, NPC names etc.