D&D 5E Bard/Wizard Hybrid Class: The White Wizard

In another thread, I brought up the 'White Wizard' archetype and I kind of lamented how 5e wizards don't really cover this. To me, a White Wizard would have access to minor healing and curing diseases etc...

This is the purview of the cleric, druid and bard. Then I wondered about mixing class abilities:

Essentially, using the bard spell list, add some Wizardy feature: spellbook and the ability to acquire spells and inscribe them. Replace the wizard special ability (like portent) with bardic inspiration. I'm wondering what other abilities you could take away from one class and add to the other class to get a hybrid?

For this thought experiment, Lore Bard makes the most sense as an archetype.
 

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Thinking more:
  • Spellcasting based on Int
  • Wizard Saves and Proficiencies
  • d6 hp
  • skills: any 3 (as per bard)
  • Tools: Herbalism Kit

Expertise (as per bard) but restricted to: Nature, Arcana, Religion, Insight, Medicine, other?

Probably drop Jack of All Trades? but replace it with what? Wizards don't get any other abilities except spells.
Maybe have a thematically appropriate selection of Wizard spells added to the Bard list?


Magical Secrets, Countercharm and Song of Rest all seem thematically appropriate (except the 'song' is reskinned as herbalism or something)
 

ph0rk

Friendship is Magic, and Magic is Heresy.
This is a neat idea. I’d suggest prepared spells like the wizard, and perhaps even basing it off the wizard class (but with the bard list, plus a few extra - a few things from the cleric list, too, like flame strike or sources of radiant damage, e.g. sacred flame), but that’s mostly because I think the wizard base class is better built around “lots of spells”. Maybe signature spell and healing word would be too much?

Perhaps called a “Sage” or something like that.
 

jgsugden

Legend
The Divine Soul sorcerer gives you a bit of the feel you desire, but is not a wizard.

If I were seeking to add this to the game, I'd do it via a 'School of Divinity' wizard that gets to learn spells on the Cleric Spell list, much as the Divine Soul Sorcerer does. However, I don't find that this is a gap that that needs to be filled, or that players have asked to fill.
 

Thinking more:
  • Spellcasting based on Int
  • Wizard Saves and Proficiencies
  • d8 hp
  • skills: any 3 (as per bard)
  • Tools: Herbalism Kit

Expertise (as per bard) but restricted to: Nature, Arcana, Religion, Insight, Medicine, other?

Probably drop Jack of All Trades? but replace it with what? Wizards don't get any other abilities except spells.
Maybe have a thematically appropriate selection of Wizard spells added to the Bard list?


Magical Secrets, Countercharm and Song of Rest all seem thematically appropriate (except the 'song' is reskinned as herbalism or something)
1st this is a cool start, but I would go a bit wierder.
Thinking more:
  • Spellcasting based on Int
  • Wizard Saves and Proficiencies
  • d6 hp
  • skills: any 3 (as per bard)
  • Tools: Herbalism Kit

give you the spellbook of the wizard BUT draw from the cleric list (so 2 per level added to the book) but I would give them the life domain as always known/prepped. I would then keep the spell prep and DC from wizard.

I would keep the arcana recharge 1/2 level.

I would also keep inspiration (Bonus action give a d6 but equal to your prof times per day and not ever upgrade....but later we are doing something with this)

at level 3 Expertise (as per bard) but restricted to: Nature, Arcana, Religion,or Medicine

at 5th level 10th level and 15th level I would keep bardic secrets... BUT the secret spells are ALWAYS count as preped.

at 6th level I would replace countercharm with a new use of inspiration... you can spend a bonus action and a die to heal a target 1d8 )instead of the normal d6 everything else does) and they can spend a HD. If they do spend the HD then in addition they gain temp hp equal to the amount you heal them

now this is where people are going to get weird...

I would not give them spells over 5th level... they do full wizard/fullcaster up to 5th level BUT starting at levels 11,13,15,17,and19 I would take a page from warlock... you choose 1 spell of the level to know and you can cast it 1/day

BUT at 18 and 20 I would keep spell mastery and signature spell from wizard
 

at 6th level I would replace countercharm with a new use of inspiration... you can spend a bonus action and a die to heal a target 1d8 )instead of the normal d6 everything else does) and they can spend a HD. If they do spend the HD then in addition they gain temp hp equal to the amount you heal them

I really like countercharm and it fits the 'defender/healer' vibe. But, after reading it, maybe it doesn't do what I think it does. If people are charmed or frightened, they get a new save at advantage as well, anyone who is subject to a charm or frightened effect can make their save at advantage. Or does it just protect people for a single round in the event that a charm or frightened effect occurs in that specific round?
 

now this is where people are going to get weird...

I would not give them spells over 5th level... they do full wizard/fullcaster up to 5th level BUT starting at levels 11,13,15,17,and19 I would take a page from warlock... you choose 1 spell of the level to know and you can cast it 1/day
Yeah, for me, I like this to be a Wizard. A full caster. Especially since both classes I'm pulling from are full casting classes.

It is a neat idea but not exactly what I'm looking for.
 

The Divine Soul sorcerer gives you a bit of the feel you desire, but is not a wizard.

If I were seeking to add this to the game, I'd do it via a 'School of Divinity' wizard that gets to learn spells on the Cleric Spell list, much as the Divine Soul Sorcerer does. However, I don't find that this is a gap that that needs to be filled, or that players have asked to fill.
Wouldn't this be too powerful? To give a Wizard access to Wizard spells AND Cleric spells? The wizard spell list is already very good. The sorcerer list is fairly limited in comparison to the Wizard list so the addition of Cleric spells seems less powerful.
 

Adventurer Conqueror King's Priestess was basically a hyper-cleric that had mage-level fighting abilities but extra clerical spells.

I've also seen a Medic class in early issues of Dragon that was the same idea--poor combat ability but better healing than a Cleric (they got Raise Dead at level 5 if I remember right).

You could reskin the cleric as a magic-user that has healing spells discovered through magic and works as a secular cleric. You'd have to figure out a way to keep magic-users from researching their spells though, and they might not get along with clerics resentful of the impious encroaching on their territory (which might make for interesting story ideas though...)
 

cbwjm

Legend
I've had a couple attempts at making a white mage, one was basically a wizard with cleric spells and subclasses. No weapons or armour from the domains so it didn't work that well with some of them, like war.

Another was the Magic-User. Not a white mage as much as a single magic using class that had subclasses that focused it. Becoming a white mage made you better with healing, protection, and radiant damage spells. The small trade off being that you couldn't cast any spells that dealt direct necrotic damage. The class had a few other subclasses like black mage, druid, elementalist, illusionist, and wizard that also gained bonuses to certain areas and may lose access to some spell effects.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Wouldn't this be too powerful? To give a Wizard access to Wizard spells AND Cleric spells? The wizard spell list is already very good. The sorcerer list is fairly limited in comparison to the Wizard list so the addition of Cleric spells seems less powerful.
If you are making this class only for a specific campaign, then all you need to do is not have clerics or druids available to be selected. Then you don't have to worry about the power of the White Wizard because there's no divine full caster class to compare it to to see if it was over or under-powered.
 

If you are making this class only for a specific campaign, then all you need to do is not have clerics or druids available to be selected. Then you don't have to worry about the power of the White Wizard because there's no divine full caster class to compare it to to see if it was over or under-powered.
I’m mostly trying to find a balanced way of doing it in a game that I can play in. With the DMs permission, obviously. I tend to be very wary of power creep, so I’m fairly conservative when homebrewing stuff. I want something balanced and flavourful.

I wonder about, as was mentioned above, playing a wizard and create a new subclass that adds a few powers at the typical wizard levels. I think, 2nd, 6th, 10th and 14th. One or more of those powers can give access to a selection of spells.
 


MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
@TaranTheWanderer I'm not exactly interested on this being a thing, but what you want seems a lot like an update of 3.x Archivist. Spellbook, cast from cleric list. You could start with a wizard, swap spell list for clerics and add the bard's on top, mix some features from bard...?
 

pnewman

Adventurer
Wouldn't this be too powerful? To give a Wizard access to Wizard spells AND Cleric spells? The wizard spell list is already very good. The sorcerer list is fairly limited in comparison to the Wizard list so the addition of Cleric spells seems less powerful.
You could always just nerf the Wizard Spell list - it's not as if Gandalf ever cast Teleportation Circle or Fireball.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I'll try something here:

Wizard: Sage of Succor

2: Healer's Hands (lay on hand)
2: Healer's Lore: You learn your choice of Spare the Dying or Guidance. When you get to pick a new spell on level up you can replace one spell of the wizard with one from the cleric spell list, as long as the spell restores hit points or removes a condition.

6: Inspiring Succor: If you cast a spell with a spell slot of 1st level or higher and target an ally with the spell, pick one of the following effect:
  • That ally can use their reaction immediately after the spell to make one weapon attack against a creature of your choice that you can see.
  • You can also end one spell of your choice on that creature. The level of the spell you end must be equal to or lower than the level of the spell slot you use to cast the healing spell.
  • That ally gains 1/2 level temporary hit points. When a creature gains these temporary hit points, it can immediately use its reaction to move up to its speed, without provoking opportunity attacks.

You can use this features PB/long rest.

10: Knowledge of Life. You can add your Int mod to medicine checks. You can detect undeads and construct in a range 90' as an Action.

14: Shared Sacrifice:
When you cast a spell using a spell slot that deals damage to any number of creatures that aren't Undead or Constructs, choose one of the creatures that took damage. You drain an amount of life energy equal to half the damage dealt to the chosen creature. One creature other than yourself that you can see within 30 feet of you regains a number of hit points equal to the life energy drained.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
 

@TaranTheWanderer I'm not exactly interested on this being a thing, but what you want seems a lot like an update of 3.x Archivist. Spellbook, cast from cleric list. You could start with a wizard, swap spell list for clerics and add the bard's on top, mix some features from bard...?
Kind of, yeah. Although, I'm not exactly looking for spells from the cleric list. The bard list has a nice mix of healing and doesn't deal too much with outsiders. I almost feel like druid is more in line than cleric. Maybe my White Wizard is actually just a Circle Druid in white robes.

But to give it one last try:

What if I went Bard List but an ability that gives access to Wizard Abjuration spells. Bard gets quite a bit of healing and abjuration gives access to Remove Curse, Mage Armour, Shield

Hit Points​

Hit Dice: 1d6per wizard level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6(or 4) + your Constitution modifier per wizard level after 1st

Proficiencies​

Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Tools: HERBALISM KIT
Saving Throws:
Intelligence, Wisdom
Skills: Choose THREE from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion

Equipment​

You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
  • (a) a quarterstaff or (b) a dagger
  • (a) a component pouch or (b) an arcane focus
  • (a) a scholar’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack
  • A spellbook

Level 1: Spellcasting: Bard; Expanded Spell list: Wizard Abjuration;
Level 2: Herbalist (Song of Rest); Inspiration Mechanic (Warding Word)
Level 3: Bardic Archetype; Expertise
Level 4+ As per bard


Giving up d8hp and weapon and armour proficiencies for a slightly expanded spell list (28 extra spells - I'm not sure how many overlap with bard).

Losing Jack of All Trades but gain access to the benefits of a spellbook which opens up flexibility and the ability to get more spells.

Losing the ability to choose any 3 skills and, instead, choose from 3 on a list

-it's essentially a bard with lower hp..

OTOH, I could go the other way:

LEvel 1 Wizard
Level 2 White Wizard subclass: access to a list of spells based on level (or access to bard list?)
LEvel 6: bardic inspiration
Level 10: ?
Level 14: ?

Sorry, if this is all a bit scattered. I have an idea in my head and I'm kind of brain storming to see where it leads me.
 

I'll try something here:

Wizard: Sage of Succor

2: Healer's Hands (lay on hand)
2: Healer's Lore: You learn your choice of Spare the Dying or Guidance. When you get to pick a new spell on level up you can replace one spell of the wizard with one from the cleric spell list, as long as the spell restores hit points or removes a condition.

6: Inspiring Succor: If you cast a spell with a spell slot of 1st level or higher and target an ally with the spell, pick one of the following effect:
  • That ally can use their reaction immediately after the spell to make one weapon attack against a creature of your choice that you can see.
  • You can also end one spell of your choice on that creature. The level of the spell you end must be equal to or lower than the level of the spell slot you use to cast the healing spell.
  • That ally gains 1/2 level temporary hit points. When a creature gains these temporary hit points, it can immediately use its reaction to move up to its speed, without provoking opportunity attacks.

You can use this features PB/long rest.

10: Knowledge of Life. You can add your Int mod to medicine checks. You can detect undeads and construct in a range 90' as an Action.

14: Shared Sacrifice:
When you cast a spell using a spell slot that deals damage to any number of creatures that aren't Undead or Constructs, choose one of the creatures that took damage. You drain an amount of life energy equal to half the damage dealt to the chosen creature. One creature other than yourself that you can see within 30 feet of you regains a number of hit points equal to the life energy drained.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
This is cool.

Healer's Lore is also neat and what I'm shooting for. So, it means I choose one spell from the Wizard list that the character can never learn?

Inspiring Succor: Does it have to be a healing spell that the character is targeting with or any spell. Like, could you target someone with a haste and get rid of their fear at the same time?

Knowledge of Life is very thematic as well. I'm not great at eyeing balance...isn't a boost to Medicine a bit weak at 10th level? Detecting undead and constructs is very cool.

Shared Sacrifice is really cool
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Healer's Lore is also neat and what I'm shooting for. So, it means I choose one spell from the Wizard list that the character can never learn?
Kinda. At each level, the wizard gets to add 2 new spells to its list of known spell. This feature allows the wizard to pick a curative spell from the cleric's list as one of this choice.

Inspiring Succor: Does it have to be a healing spell that the character is targeting with or any spell. Like, could you target someone with a haste and get rid of their fear at the same time?
Any spell targeting an ally, so haste, heroism, cure wounds etc would all work.

Knowledge of Life is very thematic as well. I'm not great at eyeing balance...isn't a boost to Medicine a bit weak at 10th level? Detecting undead and constructs is very cool.
Indeed, its more or less a ribbon. Wizard's 10th level is always rather a small-ish improvement (but does come with a second 6th level spell slot, which is already powerful in itself). At first, I had it at 2nd level as part of Healer's lore instead of the bonus cantrip.

At 10th level, you could instead have allies recover HDs equal to the total of your Arcane recovery feature when you use it. So a 10 level wizard could gain 5 HDs to split amongst they party members.
 

Kinda. At each level, the wizard gets to add 2 new spells to its list of known spell. This feature allows the wizard to pick a curative spell from the cleric's list as one of this choice.


Any spell targeting an ally, so haste, heroism, cure wounds etc would all work.


Indeed, its more or less a ribbon. Wizard's 10th level is always rather a small-ish improvement (but does come with a second 6th level spell slot, which is already powerful in itself). At first, I had it at 2nd level as part of Healer's lore instead of the bonus cantrip.

At 10th level, you could instead have allies recover HDs equal to the total of your Arcane recovery feature when you use it. So a 10 level wizard could gain 5 HDs to split amongst they party members.
I actually like the boost to medicine but it would be neat to give the skill an alternate use like let you make the equivalent of an insight check when talking to someone (like a dr. Taking a patient’s history). Just as an example. To get some use out of the boosted skill
 

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