D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

[Maxperson]

No Micah, I'm not playing that game with you. Use a new stock argument.

Changing the LEVEL of the PUB is NOT a big deal. It's just not. We're not going to sit here and complain that changing the level of the pub is some massive problem that makes the entirety of Bastions unusable. It isn't. It's ok if you don't like it being that high. I don't either. So I'm going to make pubs (and gambling dens) available at 5th level. There's no problems with this. No serious work. It isn't backbreaking. It takes no mechanical balancing.

Those magical potions are out of line with 5th level. Those would need to modified. Much shorter durations for example. Reduce the length to 1 minute and allow one drink of it per bastion turn, perhaps with a potency duration of 1 month and that would probably work.

 

[Epic Meepo]

I don't know if you have me on ignore or something, but you don't seem to respond to my posts. The DMG already has rules for building a stronghold at any level (just takes money). The difference is you don't get the bastion benefits. The bastion rules do not replace the rules in the DMG, they augment them.

I'm not intentionally ignoring anyone. I just happen to be at work right now, so my ability to follow and respond to every conversation in this thread is limited at the moment.

But, yes, thank you for pointing out the rules in the 2014 DMG. I'm glad those rules are there, and I hope we see them expanded upon in 2014. To clarify, I'm not advocating for the removal of the Bastion rules. I'm merely observing (in a tongue-in-cheek manner) that the design principals behind them don't suit my own personal tastes, so I hope other rules that do support my tastes also receive attention in 2024. Two different modular systems can exist in the same ruleset.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm not even opposed to level restrictions, I'm more bothered by the fact that this is effected by the tendency to put things on too high a shelf to be useful to players in most games. There's so much 5th level material that's inexplicably valued as level 10+ in both the old stuff and in 5.5 and even when they seem to concede that point, they do so by like two levels.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not intentionally ignoring anyone. I just happen to be at work right now, so my ability to follow and respond to every conversation in this thread is limited at the moment.

Sounds like you need to do better on your prioritization. Your D&D nerd/geek card is in jeopardy.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I'm not even opposed to level restrictions, I'm more bothered by the fact that this is effected by the tendency to put things on too high a shelf to be useful to players in most games. There's so much 5th level material that's inexplicably valued as level 10+ in both the old stuff and in 5.5 and even when they seem to concede that point, they do so by like two levels.

So I see all kinds of complaints online that the designers don't do enough T3-T4 advancement, rewards, and design. It is apparent that Bastions is one of their design efforts to support this level of play. However, it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy that if they create something cool for higher levels, and enough people complain that it should be lower level because they never reach those higher levels, and they do lower the level requirement, and therefore still don't have design unique to high levels.

I am 100% fine level-gating cool abilities. But I recognize people want to play in them earlier.

Would it be too much if many of the different Bastion Facilities had tier-based design? Like you can have a basic "pub" for food and drink at Tier 2 (L5), but if you want it to grow to give actual mechanical benefits, you can invest in upgrading it to Tier 3 or 4 over time.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Tier-based design goes a long way.

Right now it feels like most of the high tier stuff is either 'the options you chose not to take for the last ten levels' or 'what was level 5 or six but either is erroneously considered powerful or didn't fit into the structure for granting class features until now'.

There should be more stuff fit for Dragonslayers at level 12 and Godkillers at level 17. That level 13 pub should be deeply Fantastic with like a mug that connect to the main keg such that you can quaff from a continent away and there's a back door that opens to a fey court.

 

[Kinematics]

On the idea of pub tiers, something like:

Level 5: Pub

You have a small establishment that people in the local neighborhood frequent. It's cramped, but friendly. (More than 10'x10', but not a lot.) You can collect rumors of the local neighborhood (assuming it's in a larger city), and get advantage on Investigation rolls to track down specific individuals in town.

Your pub can also occasionally get a "taster" of some specialty concoction. This potion is selected from the UA list, and can last 1 minute when quaffed.

Level 9: Bar

At level 9 you can upgrade your pub to a bar, which is decently roomy. You're more widely known, and can get help from people who know people, in order to track down creatures in the city or nearby towns.

Your bar also has "local specialty brews", one of which provides magical benefits. Select from the UA list, but the potion only lasts 1 hour.

Level 13: Tavern

At level 13 you can upgrade your bar to a decent-sized tavern. This gets all the full benefits detailed in the UA.

Level 17: Cantina/Cabaret

Some combination of the Tavern and the (burlesque) Theater.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The restriction on automatic followers is not arbitrary; rather, it is based on the assumption that the fighter's reputation by that point has spread such that people will seek them out to follow them, provided they have a sufficiently impressive base at which to find them.

Which equals to "arbitrary".

 

[Epic Meepo]

Would it be too much if many of the different Bastion Facilities had tier-based design? Like you can have a basic "pub" for food and drink at Tier 2 (L5), but if you want it to grow to give actual mechanical benefits, you can invest in upgrading it to Tier 3 or 4 over time.

Tier-based design would definitely make Bastions more interesting and flexible.

It would also go a long way if the names of the facilities in the Bastions rules were more evocative of their uniqueness. There's no Rare magic item called a Longsword. There shouldn't be a 13th-level facility called a Pub.

Instead, you could have a Taproom of Fine Elixers (which everyone who's not in the know just calls a pub). And when it's time to upgrade, you could add a Feytouched Wine Cellar, or recruit a Disguised Leprechaun Bartender as a hireling.

If WotC is going to make a mini-game of wondrous, high-level Bastions worth more than gold, they're really going to have to go all in on the wondrousness of it all to sell me on it.

 

[Parmandur]

The best use of BP is the generic stuff, not getting magic items. Which is weird.

IIRC Crawford says they’re expanding and improving the downtime mechanics in the video for this UA.

Yeah, fhey don't really need much public feedback on those at this point, but bastions are new.

Apropos of nothing, it seems to me that Bastions ate also a very expandable element for Setting books and such: unique Eberron or what have you rooms, like a newspaper...?