Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[Rykion]

Sure, but it is a breach of the law to refuse to follow the orders of your superior, as Adama did.

That would be the exact situation Roslin was in. She had no confidence in Adama, or his drunken crony Tigh. So she went around them.

The legal remedy is to relieve the commander that refused to follow orders. It would not have gone well though, just like going around Adama didn't go well. Personally, if I were her, I would have just promoted Apollo to Admiral and let him order his dad around. It probably wouldn't have worked, but boy would it be funny.

Tigh is definitely incompetent. Being drunk on duty is a court-martialable offense. His not understanding what was going on with the rescue mission in the last episode shows that he was out of it.

Adama is a competent ship captain, but needed the President to remind him that his duty was to the people. He would have left the civillians without protection and gotten his crew killed fighting the Cylons. Then he refused to follow orders and arrested the President. He really doesn't seem to have what it takes to be a general level officer. It is probably why he and Tigh were left in charge of a relic of a ship that hadn't made an FTL jump in years.

 

[Storm Raven]

The legal remedy is to relieve the commander that refused to follow orders.

Or go around them and issue orders to lower ranking individuals. Doing so would be bad form, but perfectly legal.

It would not have gone well though, just like going around Adama didn't go well. Personally, if I were her, I would have just promoted Apollo to Admiral and let him order his dad around. It probably wouldn't have worked, but boy would it be funny.

It didn't go well because Adama still hasn't figured out that Roslin is legally, President. He has been having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that the Education Secretary moved to the big chair, and it shows.

Tigh is definitely incompetent. Being drunk on duty is a court-martialable offense. His not understanding what was going on with the rescue mission in the last episode shows that he was out of it.

I think it has been made pretty clear that without Adama running interference for him, Tigh would have been drummed out of the service long ago. That's why I call him "Adama's drunken crony".

Adama is a competent ship captain, but needed the President to remind him that his duty was to the people. He would have left the civillians without protection and gotten his crew killed fighting the Cylons. Then he refused to follow orders and arrested the President. He really doesn't seem to have what it takes to be a general level officer. It is probably why he and Tigh were left in charge of a relic of a ship that hadn't made an FTL jump in years.

Yeah, and his military judgment seems to be suspect as well. He threw a hissy fit over the use of the raider for Roslin's mission, claiming it was necessary for his precious plan. But it clearly wasn't. Plus he seems to be woefully ignorant of the role he is supposed to play as an officer: serving the civilians around him rather than ordering them about.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Adama said that this was a bad idea and was trying to talk Roslin out of it and set up a civilan police force. They ended with Roslin agreaing that the use of the military should be the last thing to be used.

I'm pretty sure that in the end Adama agreed to send a few.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

[/i]

Yeah, and his military judgment seems to be suspect as well. He threw a hissy fit over the use of the raider for Roslin's mission, claiming it was necessary for his precious plan. But it clearly wasn't.

How much of the success of that mission was due to the Cylon piloting the ship that ended up doing the mission? If a human had been piloting a Raptor and did that would they have been shot down? Since the Cylons are apparently constantly networked with each other, on death they are downloaded into a new body, I'm sure the Base Star was well aware of her approach. And for some reason they sacrificed that ship by allowing her to put the nuke onboard. And regardless is it was a much more sound military strategy than sending in your own ship and hoping it's not identified on approach while sending the perfect vessel for the mission off to find the "magic arrow". Hopefully they address that issue later.

 

[Storm Raven]

How much of the success of that mission was due to the Cylon piloting the ship that ended up doing the mission? If a human had been piloting a Raptor and did that would they have been shot down?

We don't know, since that didn't happen

Since the Cylons are apparently constantly networked with each other, on death they are downloaded into a new body, I'm sure the Base Star was well aware of her approach.

Maybe. The cylons have told some people that this is true, but do we have any verification that it is, or it is merely a belief shared by the cylons that this is true?

And for some reason they sacrificed that ship by allowing her to put the nuke onboard. And regardless is it was a much more sound military strategy than sending in your own ship and hoping it's not identified on approach while sending the perfect vessel for the mission off to find the "magic arrow". Hopefully they address that issue later.

Maybe, but we know for certain that it wasn't necessary for the mission - since it was accomplished anyway, without the raider. Plus, setting priorities is the President's job, not Adama's. His job is to follow her orders. He has also shown weak judgment at other times too: his desire to die fighting in a blaze of glory rather than help save the fleet (until Roslin made him see his duty), his willingness to put the entire fleet in jeopardy to save Starbuck, and so on.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Maybe, but we know for certain that it wasn't necessary for the mission - since it was accomplished anyway, without the raider. Plus, setting priorities is the President's job, not Adama's. His job is to follow her orders. He has also shown weak judgment at other times too: his desire to die fighting in a blaze of glory rather than help save the fleet (until Roslin made him see his duty), his willingness to put the entire fleet in jeopardy to save Starbuck, and so on.

Well we know that Cylon piloted Raptors can land on Base Stars without being shot down.

I agree totally on the finding starbuck thing. I hated that episode. That was the one show that I really had to question the writing on. "Lets pull the air patrol so we can find ONE crewman...". Pretty damn foolish. Of course Apollo was fully in line behind pops so I think the stupidity was pretty much spread through the crew. Of course I had a ton of problems with rest of that episode too.

 

[Fast Learner]

We know that Cylon-piloted Raptors with Cylon white speakerphone-looking thingies on them can fly into Cylon basestars.

Because the Raptor was greeted by Sharons when it arrived, it does seem likely that they somehow knew a Sharon was on board. We don't know, though, if they knew why a Sharon was coming in. My guess, anyway, would be that if they knew she had a nuke, they wouldn't have let her in.

But who knows? They're inscrutable, those Cylons.

 

[ecliptic]

No, it isn't. In point of fact, all of the evidence points the other way. Perhaps you could cite specific examples of what you think supports your insane interpretation.

Actually yes I do and it has been brought up in this thread. Episode #102. Panic is breaking out through the fleet and fights over water rations. Roslin requests military to maintain order aboard the ships. Adama refuses her request saying he will not be her policeman.

Actually, her first vision was of the twelve snakes. And Adama's plan would have failed, while the substitute plan that resulted from Roslin's interference worked.

Wrong. Her first vision was in episode #108. Sankes on the podium vision did not take place till episode #110.

Have you even been watching the show? Your description of how the cylons "think" is about as off-base as one could be.

Are you confusing their ability to act like humans and their propaganda with their actual train of thought? You ask me if I have been watching the show yet you inaccurately describe alot about the show.

You don't understand responsibility. It would be the responsibility of the military personnel to adhere to their oaths, oaths that, according to Apollo, bind them to follow the laws, the same laws that place the Quorum in charge.

It is the responsibility of the military to keep the civilian populace safe.

I believe that the only person who committed treason is Adama: he refused to obey the lawful order of the President, and then arrested the head of government in violation of the law. You may disagree with Roslin's orders, but refusing to obey them would be treason.

Roslin cannot order Adama. I have said this before.

Except that he can't, legally. He might be able to practically, but that's another matter. Shall we just add this to the long list of innaccuracies and untruths that have flowed from your keyboard in this discussion?

Oh most certainly he can. There has only been one State in the Union that is banned the use of martial law.

It's funny you declare my statements inaccurate but you seem to be ignorant of the facts and seem to make up stuff to suit your arguement. Such as the snakes on the podium being the first vision.
In 1863 Lincoln signed into law the ability for a US President to declare martial law. While the Supreme Court limited under what circumstances that it can be enacted.

Technically she has though.

IF you remember, in Season 1 she begged Adama to assign military to work police shifts aboard civilian vessels and to help settle disputes, or defend those who are trying to settle them civily.

Under OUR modern legal defention, that IS martial law. The civil governing body, asks (or orders) the military body to provide armed support and defense of its laws.

They already were under Martial Law by that standard.

I personally think the writers may have screwed up a bit on this one, or are relying on the uneducation of most viewers to get this bit by people who'll never know the diffrence.

When Tigh declared Martial Law, it wasnt even that! The Military was already providing the police. Now, he basically just said that The Miltiary wouldnt listen to any civilian law.

Thats treason. Whatever his justifications.
I dont for a minute belive Adama would have done it.


As far as we know the President of the Kobolian Government, does not directly command the military. We've been given no indication that they do on screen.
When Roslyn told Starbuck what to do, she interfered in a military matter, and thus Adama could have legaly arrested her.

Perhaps Adama was counting on Baltar to calm things down. Who knows.

Adama refused to use military forces as police when Roslin requested them. Instead wanting her to make a civilian police force. He went on about one protects from the enemy of the state and the other serves and protects the people. Where he then said something about if the two are on in the same, the people usually become the enemy of the state.

Martial law is different for different countries. But the definition of it is when a military authority takes control over the administration of justice and usually the whole state.

Perhaps she is trying to preserve a sense of normality to reassure the citizenry that things will get better at some point. Martial law is a drastic step that would likely unsettle people more than they already are, and may be counterproductive.

It was Roslin who originally wanted military as police. That is a 'sense of normality'?

True. That's not martial law. That's a military coup, and a recipe for civil war.

lol yes it is.

Yep, just like arresting the President.

The government leaders are not immune to treason. She commited treason and was arrested for inciting treason.

I don't believe most of the military has kept its structure because of loyalty to the government or its laws. The majority of the military's loyalty is to Commander Adama, and he has kept them in proper military bearing. They arrested the President at his command. A military loyal to the government would be unlikely to follow such an order. Apollo is an exception as he was not part of the Galactica's crew and has a poor relationship with his

Exactly.

Tigh is really screwing things up, and would probably find himself sucking vacuum if Adama died. Adama really doesn't seem to want authority over the civillians. He was angry that the President broke the proper chain of command.

I agree. Adama has shown in the past that he doesn't want control of the civilian government. As long as that civilian government stays out of the way of military opperations. The President went over the line with act of outright treason agains the military government. She went behind his back and risked the entire human population because she was convinced by the religious girl that she is some religious leader.

I doubt it. Most military personnel (in the modern world) don't follow a single charismatic leader because that's the thing to do. They are citizens sworn to uphold the ideals and functions of their government. Most military people follow that: their oath, not their commander.

Your military troop becomes your family and your military leader becomes your father. It is the way of the military. It is the only way that they are able to accomplish some of the things they are able to. They all trust the wisdom of Adama because it was Adama who has basically kept them alive this long.

Except, if the 12 Colonies government is like every other known government that has ever existed, it was Adama who broke the proper chain of command by refusing to follow an order given to him by a superior. Roslin was likely perfectly within her rights to give Starbuck a direct order and bypass Adama. He just had a hissy fit.

It's like I have to repeat this fact over and over. Roslin is not in charge of the military.

She didn't give Starbuck an order, she asked her to commit treason. I mean have you watched the show?

 

[Storm Raven]

Actually yes I do and it has been brought up in this thread. Episode #102. Panic is breaking out through the fleet and fights over water rations. Roslin requests military to maintain order aboard the ships. Adama refuses her request saying he will not be her policeman.

Adama doesn't refuse her, he suggests alternatives as being better options, a point that they eventually agree upon. I believe you are misremembering things on purpose at this point.

Are you confusing their ability to act like humans and their propaganda with their actual train of thought? You ask me if I have been watching the show yet you inaccurately describe alot about the show.

I doubt if you can descibe creatures that believe in a divine being, and act the way the cylons have acted as being 'only capable of literal thought". I don't think you actually understand what has been put on the screen at all.

It is the responsibility of the military to keep the civilian populace safe.

Something Adama shirked from doing in the pilot until forced to by the President. Of course, that's not the responsibility of the military. The responsibility of the military is to uphold their oaths and follow the lawful orders of their government.

Roslin cannot order Adama. I have said this before.

Are you still going on with this totally disproven canard you've come up with?

HA! HA! HA! HA!

Now you are just proving how silly your arguments are. This "Roslin cannot order Adama" foolishness you keep spouting has been (a) contradicts by the characters on the show, (b) contradicted by the writers and creators of the show, and (c) flies in the face of any known form of government that has ever existed. In other words, you don't have a leg to stand on.

And still you persist. Which exposes your arguments for the utter crap they truly are.

Oh most certainly he can. There has only been one State in the Union that is banned the use of martial law.

Um, he can't. It has been declared unConstitutional to do so. Perhaps you need to go back and study some civics.

In 1863 Lincoln signed into law the ability for a US President to declare martial law. While the Supreme Court limited under what circumstances that it can be enacted.

They declared it unConstitutional, which no statute can trump.

Martial law is different for different countries. But the definition of it is when a military authority takes control over the administration of justice and usually the whole state.

No. Martial law is when military law is applied generally. Military control of the administration of the whole state is a military government, in the BSG case, as the result of a coup.

It was Roslin who originally wanted military as police. That is a 'sense of normality'?

As a temporary measure, and she decided against it, on the very grounds that preserving normality was a good idea.

The government leaders are not immune to treason. She commited treason and was arrested for inciting treason.

Going around the chain of command is not treason. Refusing to obey the orders of the head of state is treason. Arresting the head of state because she made a decision you disagree with is treason.

I agree. Adama has shown in the past that he doesn't want control of the civilian government. As long as that civilian government stays out of the way of military opperations. The President went over the line with act of outright treason agains the military government.

There is no military government anywhere but inside your mind. There is the government of the 12 Colonies, and nothing else. This "military government" canard you've come up with is a figment of your fevered imagination.

Really, give some evidence that this seperate "military government" of yours exists. Give an example from reality to draw upon. Give an example that has come up in the course of the series where someone has stated that there is this sort of dual government. Come up with a quote.

You won't be able to, because none exists.

Your military troop becomes your family and your military leader becomes your father. It is the way of the military. It is the only way that they are able to accomplish some of the things they are able to. They all trust the wisdom of Adama because it was Adama who has basically kept them alive this long.

Only because Roslin directed him to do so. Otherwise they would have all died in a blaze of glory in the series premiere, as a result of Adama's foolish decisions.

It's like I have to repeat this fact over and over. Roslin is not in charge of the military.

Because it isn't a "fact". It is a delusion you seem to have become subject to.

 

[Vigilance]

I'm more suprised that the entire group is full of devout religious people that would just accept that off the bat. But we will see how it goes tomorrow night, should be interesting.

Well I am not "accepting it off the bat".

However, based on what I have seen, I am also not dismissing it out of hand.

The fact is, everyone who talked to her about her visions and why she gave the order seem to think she did the right thing.

Starbuck isnt overly religious, yet she was convinced.

Adama might have been had he talked with her, rather than sending a squad of armed goons to arrest her.

You might be surprised that people dont immediately equate visions with lunacy, but *I* am surprised how many here support rule by the gun rather than the law.

She's being held, with no access to any sort of council and being denied medicine for a terminal illness.

Yeah, Adama's the good guy.

Criminy.

Chuck