Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[Storm Raven]

No, the President was not within her rights to give a direct order to Starbuck. If Adama refused an order, she would be within her rights to replace him, assuming she is Commander in chief. She then should give the order to the next military commander. Issuing an order to someone that is not a direct subordinate is clearly breaking the chain of command. She has undermined Adama's authority as Commander, Tigh's authority as XO, and Apollo's authority as CAG.

Which she can do. A superior officer can go around chain of command if they desire. It is one of the perks of the job. A general can give an order directly to a private if he wants to, and the order is just as valid as one pased down through channels.

 

[Storm Raven]

There Is a LAW allowing the most Senior surviving General/Admaridal to take total control of the USA with the spifica instructions to reconstutie the Civilan goverment in the event of ALL OUT NUCKING OF THE USA. It was wirten in the 1950's and extendended after 9/11 to include Chenical and Bio attacks in all areas nessary.

That is the line of succession law. The equivalent has already been invoked in the BSG universe - that's how Roslin became President. Arguing that now, when Adama doesn't like the results, he should be able to remove her and replace with himself is arguing in favor of a military coup, not in favor of following the law of sucession.

 

[WizarDru]

I'm surprised by how many people are so supportive of Pres. Roslyn. For that matter, I'm surprised by how the entire Quorum fell to their knees to worship her when she told them about her visions. I mean, she's governing by visions, you know?

I'd have to watch it again, but I don't think they ALL went down on bended knee. The rep from Geminom certainly did, and a few others...but I think half of them remained standing, such as Zarek.

I think Adama is actually upset about the Pres. turning Starbuck "against" him. But I don't think Adama is a fascist - Tigh maybe, though. Adama and Roslyn are both good folk doing crazy, crazy things that endanger the remains of human civilization.

I think that the insight about Starbuck is a profound one; there's only one person Bill Adama cares about more. I think it's highly unfair to call them incompetent, though. They're doing the best they can in really, REALLY difficult circumstances. It's been a few months at most since the near genocide of the human race? I think they're doing the best they can; they're human and it's really hard to do.

A few random thoughts: there seems to be a widespread assumption that the cylons are letting them escape; I don't think that's entirely true. There've been a lot of close calls that were a little TOO close. I do believe that they want some of mankind to survive...but I think the original plan didn't include the galactica. The cylons are smart and dangerous...but they've been shaving it AWFULLY close. Let's take Baltar, for example; if he's so darned important, why crash the Raptor so badly? It's pure luck that he's survived any number of horrible mishaps. I find it very hard to believe that they planned for him to be rescued by Helo's sacrifice and were certain he would be in no danger from all of the happenstances since then. That crash alone had a high chance of being fatal for Baltar...how would the cylons be able to be sure that he survived relativley intact? My sneaking suspicion is that there are factions within the cylons, and their playing out a bizarre game.

Also, I just want to put another good word in for Zarek here. We only think that he's egomaniacal and power-hungry because Apollo said he was, not because he actually is. (Assassinating the president doesn't count!)

Yeah, well...power-hungry, maybe/maybe not. Insane and egomaniacal: full-on. How about: "[font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Once Roslyn uses Adama's soldiers to massacre the people on this ship, prisoners and hostages alike, the people in the fleet will never, never forgive them. The entire government will collapse." Remember, this little speech was given less than two weeks after mankind was nearly wiped from existence.

Let's remember, Zarek bombed a government building back on Sagittaron. An act of terroristic violence he doesn't repent, 20 years later. A man who was offered freedom but refused it, because he wouldn't advocate peaceful change. Zarek is a great character, but he's a total bastard.
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[wingsandsword]

There Is a LAW allowing the most Senior surviving General/Admaridal to take total control of the USA with the spifica instructions to reconstutie the Civilan goverment in the event of ALL OUT NUCKING OF THE USA. It was wirten in the 1950's and extendended after 9/11 to include Chenical and Bio attacks in all areas nessary.

No, there isn't, there are conspiracy theories and urban legends about shadowy plans to have some military officer take control in an emergency, but it doesn't exist, and if it did it was superceeded by other laws and directives that maintain the integrity of Civil authority. You can't have a law to do an illegal thing. If there is such a law, cite it, give references. Everything I'm asserting I'm providing outside evidence and links for.

There is Looking Glass, the plan of continuously having a General in a fully outfitted command aircraft in the air at all times with military contingency plans that began in 1961, but that was only to ensure the military chain of command should lines of communication be severed or there be any delay in finding the lawful successor to the POTUS. Looking Glass remains active, but since 1990 and the end of the Cold War, it isn't in the air, but on 24 hour alert to launch and have a backup military command active and execute the policies and directives handed down as final orders from the POTUS. It was not a martial law plan to give a high ranking General control of the civil government. The Presidential Succession Act of 1947 is the relevant law here (http://bensguide.gpo.gov/9-12/government/national/succession.html There are many sites for this, I searched to find one that was .gov so it was from an official government source)

http://www.fema.gov/onsc/docs/fpc_65.pdf Federal Preparedness Circular 65 is the actual government memorandum on the subject, distributed throughout the government as the manual on preparing for such a cataclysm, and ensuring that everybody knows who has lawful authority in such a case. In no case in FPC 65 is the military directed to seize control. In fact, it even makes the point of specifically waiting until a legal successor can be found, preferably within 12 hours.

In the BSG universe, their version of this was activated in the miniseries, when Roslin was the only person remaining in the line of succession who was able to respond to their emergency beacon, and it was validated through their COOP system, who later reconstructed a legitimate civilian government, including their legislature and an election of a Vice President. The Quorum even appeared to be backing Roslin's actions as legitimate, hence Tigh moving them out of the Brig and promptly declaring (unlawful) martial law.

 

[MaxKaladin]

The 800-lb. gorilla in the room, of course, is religion. Adama wasn't angry just because the president had interferred in a mission: he was angry that she had done so on what he considers a fool's errand. It's one thing to intone "So Say We All."...quite another to accept that the prophecised scripture of your religion is suddenly being claimed as legitimate and actionable by the Prez. Adama is a pragmatist and a man of principles and reason. He respects...but I'm sure we'll find that he doesn't truly hold much truck with the Lords of Cobol. He may pay lip service to it, but in his heart, he doesn't accept that it could really be happening.

This is what I think and it is why I support his actions. I have similar thoughts about this being a fools mission. This whole "retrieve the Arrow of Athena so we can use it on Kobol to find the path to Earth" thing sounds like a bad fantasy book, not a rational course of action. I want to stress that I am normally absolutely against military overthrow of civilian authority, but when the stakes are this high, most of the civilian government is destroyed and the president starts making decisions based on a belief that she's a religious prophet, I'm willing to make an exception.

And that's part of the issue of the debate: accepting that Roslyn really is receiving messages from the Lords of Cobol and the acceptance that such beings both exist and are manipulating events is a big reach. Science Fiction generally rejects these beliefs as being anything more than relgious dogma and faith, not as literal fact. People believe in God...but REAL ANGELS don't show up, just aliens of some kind or some sort of mistake, trick or manipulation. That defies the genre conventions and expectations...which may be part of the reason they're doing it in the first place.

This is, I think, the fundamental argument here. People are not used to Science Fiction having religion as literal fact and the baseline assumption is to assume it is nothing but dogma and faith until it is specifically and clearly shown to be otherwise (and it has been kept vague in Galactica so far). If you are willing to accept that Roslin is a genuine prophet -- or, at least, that it is reasonable to believe she is -- then Adama's actions look mutinous and traitorous acts that should not be tolerated. If you are not willing to accept that Roslin is a genuine prophet or that it is reasonable to believe she is, then Adama's actions look like a necessary, if regretable, evil that had to happen to save the remainder of humanity from destruction. I think that's really the seed of the argument here.

 

[Rykion]

Which she can do. A superior officer can go around chain of command if they desire. It is one of the perks of the job. A general can give an order directly to a private if he wants to, and the order is just as valid as one pased down through channels.

It is at the least, a major breach of chain of command etiquette. A general going to the frontlines just to give commands to privates can at least expect to be chewed out by his superior. It shows that the officer has no confidence in the people whose authority has been ignored. The President has no legal superior, but she found out what happens when you snub the person that holds the loyalty of the military. Tigh's incompetence, Adama's being out of it, and the crew's unwillingness to injure civillians will probably lead to the President regaining power.

 

[wingsandsword]

It looks like the next episode, tomorrow night, will start to answer some of these questions, judging from the Preview (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/)

Episode Name: Resistance
Preview Summary (from scifi.com): After Col. Tigh imposes martial law, Lee conspires to free Pres. Roslin and organizes a democratic resistance.

Here's a transcript:

Establishing shot of Galactica:

Officer Speaking to Tigh: Three more ships are refusing to resupply Galactica until the President is reenstated.

Title Card: Silencing Freedom

Tigh: That's it, I'm sending in the marines, tell them to get over there and bring back the supplies!

Reaction takes from the CIC crew

Shots of marines moving cargo containers while in full combat gear

Title Card: Leads to Rebellion

Roslin, behind bars: Something ugly is coming, I can feel it.

Shots of marines in a brawl with civilians.

 

[Storm Raven]

It is at the least, a major breach of chain of command etiquette.

Sure, but it is a breach of the law to refuse to follow the orders of your superior, as Adama did.

A general going to the frontlines just to give commands to privates can at least expect to be chewed out by his superior. It shows that the officer has no confidence in the people whose authority has been ignored.

That would be the exact situation Roslin was in. She had no confidence in Adama, or his drunken crony Tigh. So she went around them.

The President has no legal superior, but she found out what happens when you snub the person that holds the loyalty of the military. Tigh's incompetence, Adama's being out of it, and the crew's unwillingness to injure civillians will probably lead to the President regaining power.

Probably.

 

[dravot]

I'm more suprised that the entire group is full of devout religious people that would just accept that off the bat. But we will see how it goes tomorrow night, should be interesting.

Why does that surprise you? Some people automatically accepted the appearance of the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich.

Now, if it was Reuben or a patty melt, then I'd understand.

 

[Storm Raven]

This is what I think and it is why I support his actions. I have similar thoughts about this being a fools mission. This whole "retrieve the Arrow of Athena so we can use it on Kobol to find the path to Earth" thing sounds like a bad fantasy book, not a rational course of action.

As do many missions planned by religious organizations. That doesn't mean they can be ignored though. Adama's original plan in the pilot (go down fighting in a blaze of glory) was just as irrational, if not more so. At least Roslin's plan is something she believes will lead humanity to some sort of refuge. What plan does Adama have other than "wander about until I figure something out to get out of the lie I told everyone at the beginning of this journey"?

In addition, his justification for refusing Roslin's directions ("we need the raider as a military asset") seems pretty hollow now, since they obviously didn't need the raider for much of anything. Sending a single ship to Capirca to retrive something seems like a pretty small investment of resources, even if it proves to be a wild goose chase.

I want to stress that I am normally absolutely against military overthrow of civilian authority, but when the stakes are this high, most of the civilian government is destroyed and the president starts making decisions based on a belief that she's a religious prophet, I'm willing to make an exception.

The correct course would have been to bring this to the attention of the Quroum, and aksed for her to be lawfully removed. But Adama didn't want to do that. I suspect, based upon the reactions we have seen, that this is because he would have lost that debate. If the government is run by a religious prophet, and might have the support of the populace, is it Adama's place to supplant their judgment with his own?

If you are willing to accept that Roslin is a genuine prophet -- or, at least, that it is reasonable to believe she is -- then Adama's actions look mutinous and traitorous acts that should not be tolerated. If you are not willing to accept that Roslin is a genuine prophet or that it is reasonable to believe she is, then Adama's actions look like a necessary, if regretable, evil that had to happen to save the remainder of humanity from destruction. I think that's really the seed of the argument here.

Actually, even if you assume Roslin is having delusions, hallucinations, or even cylon implanted flashes, Adama's actions look mutinous and traitorous. The military does not perform a coup, no matter how bad the President is. There are ways to remove people from office legally. Using other methods to do this is criminal treason, no matter the justification.