Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[WizarDru]

They arrested the President at his command. A military loyal to the government would be unlikely to follow such an order. Apollo is an exception as he was not part of the Galactica's crew and has a poor relationship with his father. Tigh is really screwing things up, and would probably find himself sucking vacuum if Adama died. Adama really doesn't seem to want authority over the civillians. He was angry that the President broke the proper chain of command.

The situation is, of course, pretty complex. The military is clearly loyal to the Old Man. However, ONLY to the Old Man. Tigh doesn't have their respect (remember Dualla's 'tippling' motion?) and his 'personal' problems have now become 'professional' problems (remember that exchange?) which are, in turn, MANKIND's problems. Both you and Vigilance hit the nail on the head of the possible ramification of military rule with governmental support: dictators are often overthrown. Even a cursory inspection of South America's 'Strong Men' shows that, for example. It's no accident that such dictators (be it Saddam, Papa Doc, Trujillo, Amin or dozens of others) surround themselves with family members...they can't trust many others.

Further, it's already clear that many would directly oppose such a situation. There were plenty of security guards ready to die to protect the president when Tigh came. Venner's loyalty is clearly no longer primarily to the military. Zarek's followers certainly would fight.

The 800-lb. gorilla in the room, of course, is religion. Adama wasn't angry just because the president had interferred in a mission: he was angry that she had done so on what he considers a fool's errand. It's one thing to intone "So Say We All."...quite another to accept that the prophecised scripture of your religion is suddenly being claimed as legitimate and actionable by the Prez. Adama is a pragmatist and a man of principles and reason. He respects...but I'm sure we'll find that he doesn't truly hold much truck with the Lords of Cobol. He may pay lip service to it, but in his heart, he doesn't accept that it could really be happening.

And that's part of the issue of the debate: accepting that Roslyn really is receiving messages from the Lords of Cobol and the acceptance that such beings both exist and are manipulating events is a big reach. Science Fiction generally rejects these beliefs as being anything more than relgious dogma and faith, not as literal fact. People believe in God...but REAL ANGELS don't show up, just aliens of some kind or some sort of mistake, trick or manipulation. That defies the genre conventions and expectations...which may be part of the reason they're doing it in the first place.

We're now about to come to loggerheads over the issue. Adama clearly thought the president had lost it; Tigh assumed it after Ellen clued him in. Others are quite ready to accept it. Consider: now she's not just the president held in the brig...she's the SAVIOR OF MANKIND.

 

[Safana Cain]

I'm surprised by how many people are so supportive of Pres. Roslyn. For that matter, I'm surprised by how the entire Quorum fell to their knees to worship her when she told them about her visions. I mean, she's governing by visions, you know?

Not that overthrowing her like some banana republic general was the right thing to do. Maybe if you find out the President did something crazy you quietly let the Quorum know and not try to kill her. I think Adama is actually upset about the Pres. turning Starbuck "against" him. But I don't think Adama is a fascist - Tigh maybe, though. Adama and Roslyn are both good folk doing crazy, crazy things that endanger the remains of human civilization.

Also, I just want to put another good word in for Zarek here. We only think that he's egomaniacal and power-hungry because Apollo said he was, not because he actually is. (Assassinating the president doesn't count!)

 

[Storm Raven]

Not that I can think of.

Not yet. I'm thinking the Chief will have some problems with it once he gets back. And the religious guard seemed to be willing to do what he could. Her security guards sure seemed willing to stand by her too. We have yet to see what the military in general will do: remember, it's only been a few hours since Adama arrested the President.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

If just hope they never state for sure one way or another, at least not until the end of the series, if she is a nut or a prophet. Keep it ambiguous.

 

[Storm Raven]

I'm surprised by how many people are so supportive of Pres. Roslyn. For that matter, I'm surprised by how the entire Quorum fell to their knees to worship her when she told them about her visions. I mean, she's governing by visions, you know?

It's funny how people who have deep religious faith don't respond the way many cynical Westerners think they should, isn't it?

Not that overthrowing her like some banana republic general was the right thing to do. Maybe if you find out the President did something crazy you quietly let the Quorum know and not try to kill her. I think Adama is actually upset about the Pres. turning Starbuck "against" him. But I don't think Adama is a fascist - Tigh maybe, though. Adama and Roslyn are both good folk doing crazy, crazy things that endanger the remains of human civilization.

I'm sure there are lawful means of removing a President in the 12 Colonies. I suspect that Adama didn't want to use these because he thought that when Roslin's visions were revealed (as they would have to be in such a situation), many people would react exactly as the members of the Quorum did, and the popular vote would go against him. So instead, he took the "arrest her" route, to avoid having to subject his decisions to popular opinion. That pretty much goes a long way to making him out to be a fascist.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

It's funny how people who have deep religious faith don't respond the way many cynical Westerners think they should, isn't it?

I'm more suprised that the entire group is full of devout religious people that would just accept that off the bat. But we will see how it goes tomorrow night, should be interesting.

 

[Rykion]

Except, if the 12 Colonies government is like every other known government that has ever existed, it was Adama who broke the proper chain of command by refusing to follow an order given to him by a superior. Roslin was likely perfectly within her rights to give Starbuck a direct order and bypass Adama. He just had a hissy fit.

No, the President was not within her rights to give a direct order to Starbuck. If Adama refused an order, she would be within her rights to replace him, assuming she is Commander in chief. She then should give the order to the next military commander. Issuing an order to someone that is not a direct subordinate is clearly breaking the chain of command. She has undermined Adama's authority as Commander, Tigh's authority as XO, and Apollo's authority as CAG.

Military's are not usually run by a single charismatic commander, but ships and bases often are. The entire military is now basically the crew of one ship, and the miniseries established that Adama is very popular and very hands on. He is no longer just a ship commander, he is now the highest ranking military officer. Just like the Secretary of education became the President of the Colonies.

I do think that both Tigh and Adama have been shown to be incompetent for the authority given to them. Tigh is an unpopular alcoholic that has relied on the "old man" to lead. Adama is a competent ship commander, but often needs someone to remind him of what his proper duties are. Apollo is actually the only officer shown trying to uphold the proper duty of the military.

 

[TanisFrey]

Also, if you think that the nuclear destruction of Washington DC would lead to nationwide martial law possibly with some General running things, you really don't know much about civics, American history, or the Constitution.

American law and precedent is very clear that the President cannot legally do that if such a cataclysm happens.

A nuclear strike against Washington DC also wouldn't destroy entire civilian government. We have what are called Continuity of Operations Plans, where we are always prepared for such an event, and have been since the dawn of the Cold War. Under no circumstance is everybody in the line to the Presidency ever in one place, and there are very long and very elaborate plans to ensure that a legally valid Federal government remains intact. Frankly, if as little as one state Lieutenant Governor somewhere in the country survives a disaster, he can ascend to become Governor, who can appoint two interim Senators, who can choose one of them as a President Pro Tempore of the Senate, who is then immediately sworn in as President, and another Senator is appointed to fill that gap, and then the new President can appoint a new Cabinet and Supreme Court that are confirmed by the new Senate, and there is an interim government legally reestablished until new elections can be convened at the end of the current term of office. Under no circumstance is the idea of some General or Admiral just assuming power ever part of this plan.

There Is a LAW allowing the most Senior surviving General/Admaridal to take total control of the USA with the spifica instructions to reconstutie the Civilan goverment in the event of ALL OUT NUCKING OF THE USA. It was wirten in the 1950's and extendended after 9/11 to include Chenical and Bio attacks in all areas nessary.

 

[TanisFrey]

IF you remember, in Season 1 she begged Adama to assign military to work police shifts aboard civilian vessels and to help settle disputes, or defend those who are trying to settle them civily.

Adama said that this was a bad idea and was trying to talk Roslin out of it and set up a civilan police force. They ended with Roslin agreaing that the use of the military should be the last thing to be used.

 

[Rykion]

And that's part of the issue of the debate: accepting that Roslyn really is receiving messages from the Lords of Cobol and the acceptance that such beings both exist and are manipulating events is a big reach. Science Fiction generally rejects these beliefs as being anything more than relgious dogma and faith, not as literal fact. People believe in God...but REAL ANGELS don't show up, just aliens of some kind or some sort of mistake, trick or manipulation. That defies the genre conventions and expectations...which may be part of the reason they're doing it in the first place.

That is one of the reasons I liked the original Battlestar Galactica. Religion played a key role, and it wasn't assumed that it was all just a ruse by a more advanced race. The new Adama and President Roslyn are the original series Adama's soul split in two. If they would just get on the same page, they might be able to save humanity. It makes the new series frustrating and dramatic at the same time.