Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[Storm Raven]

If we lost our government the military would still do their job because of how chain of command is setup.

If we "lost our government" then soldiers would have no responsibility whatsoever to follow the orders of their superiors. A point made explicitly in the show by Apollo. Trying to argue that the BSG system is somehow "different" in the face of explicit contradictory evidence given in the show is silly, and makes your argument fall apart like the hollow shell that it is.

You mean our States were planets? OMG how did I miss that?

Now you are just being dense. You said there was no precedent for twelve colonies joining together to form a unified government. Not only is there such a precedent, there is a very strong one. This is an aruging point that you have clearly lost.

You mean because there isn't one now there can't ever be one? That logic seems narrow.

Generally, the lack of any similar form of government ever happening in all of human history is an indication that it doesn't make sense. You started by arguing that "there are governments different from the U.S. where the head of government doesn't have control over the military". There aren't. You lost the argument, so now you dodge and weave, rephrasing your argument to "there could be", which is nonsensical, because such a government couldn't function, even in peacetime.

You are refering to a few of the qurom. What else would the highly religious do?

Actually, if you note, I'm referring to all of the Quorum, since they were all there when Roslin made her revelation. I am also referring to the various people she has confided in who have accepted her story as true. Once again from the evidence given on the show, we have no reason to believe that she would not be believed.

Your kidding right? I read that and the first thing that came to my mind was that you need help. "Just because you don't believe them". ROFL. Dude Battlestar Galactica isn't real, the Quorom isn't real.

No it isn't. BUt the show has a consistent reality of its own. Just because in the real world you would find such a leader to be unbelievable doesn't mean that the denizens of the BSG universe will share your position, as you seem to think.

The majority? The point of a republic is to give reperesentation to the minority so the majority doesn't mob rule. You are advocating mob rule.

You need a refresher on exactly what a republic is. First off, you "minority protection" silliness is just that, sillinees. Many do indeed allow for majorities to do whatever they want. The U.S. has a system designed to allow for protection of individual liberties, but even that can be trumped by a sufficient majority. However, in the normal course of business, the majority, even in the U.S., gets to decide what the government is going to do.

You mean visions that were obviously implanted by cylons?

There is no "obviously" about it. You seem to think that it is a "done deal" that Roslin's visions are delusions, implanted hallucinations, or something similar. We, however, have no evidence that is true. This is where your argument falls apart.

It would be the civilians decision. Military isn't abandoning anyone, they are letting them choose to leave.

It would be the military's decision not to follow the orders of the civilian government, as they all swore to do.

It great though that you like to throw personal insults around. I think you need to cool down from this arguement because you are taking this way too seriously.

I think it would be great if you injected a little bit more rationality in your arguments, since you clearly know nothing about (a) government, (b) military command, or (c) humans.

If Washington DC got nuked we would be under martial law because the then President would have us under martial law. But that is completely different than Battlestar Galactica's government.

Perhaps (but unlikely), but it would be the President rather than some two-star general making that decision. A two-star general in the U.S. who tried to ignore the President (or his lawful successor) and set himself up as the head of government in that scenario would be a criminal, and not, as you seem to think, the legitimate head of government.

We have no evidence to think that the 12 Colonies have some sort of "independent" military government that you have posited. If they did, it would be a major plot point, since no such government has ever existed in reality. Highlighting this very unusual government form would have been a high priority, given how important it has become to the storyline. But they haven't, meaning that the evidence points towards you talking out of your hind end on this.

 

[Storm Raven]

The government is setup like the writers set it up. It is obvious by the workings in the TV shows and the writers comments that the military and civilian branches of government are seperate.

No, it isn't. In point of fact, all of the evidence points the other way. Perhaps you could cite specific examples of what you think supports your insane interpretation.

You mean besides the fact that one of her first hallucinations is about a cyclon? Every one of her hallucinations have put them in direct fire of the cylons in someway. Where a military operation would have completely failed because of the President's inept decision yet plan B only succeeded because the cylons permitted it.

Actually, her first vision was of the twelve snakes. And Adama's plan would have failed, while the substitute plan that resulted from Roslin's interference worked.

No religious text of any kind can be taken straight and literally. How else do cylons know how to interpret anything? They have the mind of a machine, they see stuff in binary and they output stuff in binary. Straight forward interpretations is the only way they see stuff.

Have you even been watching the show? Your description of how the cylons "think" is about as off-base as one could be.

It would be the responsibility of parents to listen to the military to keep their children safe.
It would be the responsibility of the civilian government to listen to the military to keep their people safe.

You don't understand responsibility. It would be the responsibility of the military personnel to adhere to their oaths, oaths that, according to Apollo, bind them to follow the laws, the same laws that place the Quorum in charge.

It is Roslins repsponsibility to answer for her treasonous acts.

I believe that the only person who committed treason is Adama: he refused to obey the lawful order of the President, and then arrested the head of government in violation of the law. You may disagree with Roslin's orders, but refusing to obey them would be treason.

You mean the basic course of government that teaches that the President of the United States can put this country under martial law if such a thing happens?

Except that he can't, legally. He might be able to practically, but that's another matter. Shall we just add this to the long list of innaccuracies and untruths that have flowed from your keyboard in this discussion?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

IMO if we were hit by nuclear attack via terrorism or other attack from within via suitcase nuke or whatever, the President would declare a state of emerency and with it martial law. I think the majority of people would go along with it due to panic and fear. The idea of trading liberty for security is a common thing under times of fear, I read it all the time in the papers and on the news sites even today and we haven't been nuked to our last few thousand people. Sure it wouldn't be a general calling the shots, but the POTUS who is the head of the military. I can't see why the President in BSG hasn't delcared a form of martial law herself other than her gods haven't told her to or something. I would think it would be the prudent thing until you can get away from the Cylon threat at least. This is a war for the species not a war over oil or land. I dunno, but I think I've pretty much tapped my thoughts on this out.

So what to expect from next week? I'm pumped for this episode so hopefully it delivers. I'm starting to get tired of Adama laying on the freakin' table though. I'd like to see that subplot wrapped up a bit and get him back into action, if limited action for a while since he is recovering. Either way Olmos is really making out like a bandit here. His acting is easy, laying on a table has to be the best way to earn a paycheck...and it's hard to screw your lines up.

Baltarr really interests me. Sometimes I just totally hate him, sometimes I feel for him, sometimes I'm rooting for him...it's all over the board. I guess that's good writing.

I wonder if the Cylon on BSG will be in this show? I don't think they did anything at all with her last week. I bet Helo will want to nail her when he gets back with Starbuck...if he does. Part of me thinks he's going to buy it getting off the planet. Either way he's still an idiot. The Chief's reaction to "Sharon" is going to be interesting though. Ya know I wonder if they have thought is she may be trackable by the cylon fleets? It may be best just to space her.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Technically she has though.

IF you remember, in Season 1 she begged Adama to assign military to work police shifts aboard civilian vessels and to help settle disputes, or defend those who are trying to settle them civily.

Under OUR modern legal defention, that IS martial law. The civil governing body, asks (or orders) the military body to provide armed support and defense of its laws.

They already were under Martial Law by that standard.

I personally think the writers may have screwed up a bit on this one, or are relying on the uneducation of most viewers to get this bit by people who'll never know the diffrence.

When Tigh declared Martial Law, it wasnt even that! The Military was already providing the police. Now, he basically just said that The Miltiary wouldnt listen to any civilian law.

Thats treason. Whatever his justifications.
I dont for a minute belive Adama would have done it.


As far as we know the President of the Kobolian Government, does not directly command the military. We've been given no indication that they do on screen.
When Roslyn told Starbuck what to do, she interfered in a military matter, and thus Adama could have legaly arrested her.

Perhaps Adama was counting on Baltar to calm things down. Who knows.

 

[Storm Raven]

IMO if we were hit by nuclear attack via terrorism or other attack from within via suitcase nuke or whatever, the President would declare a state of emerency and with it martial law.

State of emergency, probably. Martial law, unlikely.

I can't see why the President in BSG hasn't delcared a form of martial law herself other than her gods haven't told her to or something. I would think it would be the prudent thing until you can get away from the Cylon threat at least. This is a war for the species not a war over oil or land. I dunno, but I think I've pretty much tapped my thoughts on this out.

Perhaps she is trying to preserve a sense of normality to reassure the citizenry that things will get better at some point. Martial law is a drastic step that would likely unsettle people more than they already are, and may be counterproductive.

 

[Storm Raven]

When Tigh declared Martial Law, it wasnt even that! The Military was already providing the police. Now, he basically just said that The Miltiary wouldnt listen to any civilian law.

True. That's not martial law. That's a military coup, and a recipe for civil war.

Thats treason. Whatever his justifications.

Yep, just like arresting the President.

As far as we know the President of the Kobolian Government, does not directly command the military.

Then who does? As a practical matter, how would a government in which the head of state did not control the military function?

We've been given no indication that they do on screen.

Well, other than Apollo's comments.

When Roslyn told Starbuck what to do, she interfered in a military matter, and thus Adama could have legaly arrested her.

Not in any known legal system. That's the sticking point. The government you describe (the head of state does not command the military) is unprecedented. Yet no mention has been made of this fact. Somehow, given the lack of groundwork laid for this in the series, I don't think that this heretofore unknown form of government that has been positied is the on the Twelve Colonies use.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

From what I see, when Adama was concious, as he Understands it, HE leads humanity. Right now, in space they are in the middle of a war. HE has the experience, he has the knowledge and he has the authority (from his perspective) to lead humanity to saftey. He allows Roslyn and the Quorum to exist as they are, as concessions to make the colonial people still alive more comfortable. To keep hope alive.

Remember in the pilot mini series, keeping hope alive was one of the most important things to him.

I'm sure that Adama fully intends to reach a safe planet away from the cylons, then fall into the backround letting Roslyn and company run humanity, and being there to do what he needs to do.

But, right now the entire thing is a military operation. They're running for their lives. The planets they call home are obliterated. There IS no government. There is a bunch of surviving ships protected by the miltiary.

I agree with him. Roslyn was wrong for sending starbuck out like that. Despite what she belives. She should have stepped back and let Adama do his job of getting them to saftey.

If earth was destroyed and I ended up on some starship. I certainly wouldnt want Bush calling the shots out there when some manaics were trying to kill us. I'd want the miltary in complete control till I was safe and sound.

But as we've all said before. Its a fantasy, its not real.

Lets just see how the story plays out

 

[Storm Raven]

But, right now the entire thing is a military operation. They're running for their lives. The planets they call home are obliterated. There IS no government. There is a bunch of surviving ships protected by the miltiary.

In which case, we go back to Apollo's quote: Roslin's not President, Adama's not an admiral, Apollo isn't a captain, and no one needs to bother following orders. It is hard to justify a military structure based upon loyalty to a government and set of laws if you set those things aside.

I agree with him. Roslyn was wrong for sending starbuck out like that. Despite what she belives. She should have stepped back and let Adama do his job of getting them to saftey.

Even when she thought Adama was wrong (as he has been before)? Wouldn't that be abdicating her responsibility as President?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I would expect the President to retain command of the military, but only if he was competent to do it.

 

[Steel_Wind]

He specifically talks about the civilian and military authorities as if they were 2 seperate entities. Then he goes on talking about how they value their system of government like we do. You pretty much gave me a bogus link.

No. He "pretty much" directly and utterly destroyed your misguided arguments in a convincing and authoritative manner.

And you've "pretty much" shown everyone else here you don't know when to give it up. :\