Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

[jasper]

ok I see your pt Storm Raven.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

How long until the distinction of civilian and military is gone? If you are conscripted for infantry service due to losses in combat with cylons do you have a choice? You only have so many people and they all have to pull thier weight be it in combat for survival or in some support roles. You won't really have an option for "I don't want to fight Cylons I want to write poetry..." if the human race is on the brink of extinction and there are more waves of Cylons to be fought off. You have to do what you have to do to keep the species alive. I'd like to see more of that addressed, which I'm guessing we will the coming weeks.

 

[WizarDru]

How long until the distinction of civilian and military is gone? If you are conscripted for infantry service due to losses in combat with cylons do you have a choice? You only have so many people and they all have to pull thier weight be it in combat for survival or in some support roles. You won't really have an option for "I don't want to fight Cylons I want to write poetry..." if the human race is on the brink of extinction and there are more waves of Cylons to be fought off. You have to do what you have to do to keep the species alive. I'd like to see more of that addressed, which I'm guessing we will the coming weeks.

See, here's the thing: that sounds like you think the rest of the fleet is just twiddling their thumbs, waiting to be protected all day long. We know that's demonstrably not true. There's food production, goods and services, transport, large volumes of daily maintenance on each ship, infrastructure support, security and dozens of other daily tasks necessary to survival. The military does not and cannot perform those functions, at least not all of them.

One problem the fleet must be facing is economies of scale, or rather the lack of them. If they only had twenty really large similar ships, it wouldn't be a problem. However, they've got dozens of different ships. That requires specialized pilots and maintenance crews...and most of these ships are being used for purposes they never were intended for. Like the prison ship, which was never meant to hold people as long as they have, or a ship like Colonial One, which was meant to dock and be serviced hours after launch. It's been MONTHS. The effort of just keeping the fleet moving is a task unto itself. This is, again, something the military isn't doing, and doesn't have the manpower to do. The infrastucture is handled by the civilian government in what is best described as a herculean (possibly quixotic) effort.

I agree that they'll have to start recruiting heavily soon...but I suspect we'll see them starting to abandon ships eventually.

 

[Storm Raven]

See, here's the thing: that sounds like you think the rest of the fleet is just twiddling their thumbs, waiting to be protected all day long. We know that's demonstrably not true. There's food production, goods and services, transport, large volumes of daily maintenance on each ship, infrastructure support, security and dozens of other daily tasks necessary to survival. The military does not and cannot perform those functions, at least not all of them.

One problem the fleet must be facing is economies of scale, or rather the lack of them. If they only had twenty really large similar ships, it wouldn't be a problem. However, they've got dozens of different ships. That requires specialized pilots and maintenance crews...and most of these ships are being used for purposes they never were intended for. Like the prison ship, which was never meant to hold people as long as they have, or a ship like Colonial One, which was meant to dock and be serviced hours after launch. It's been MONTHS. The effort of just keeping the fleet moving is a task unto itself. This is, again, something the military isn't doing, and doesn't have the manpower to do. The infrastucture is handled by the civilian government in what is best described as a herculean (possibly quixotic) effort.

I agree that they'll have to start recruiting heavily soon...but I suspect we'll see them starting to abandon ships eventually.

There's also the problem of training soldiers in a high-tech environment. While the skills needed to operate in a military environment may (in the past) have been relatively simple enough that they could be mastered by conscripts given moderate amounts of training, more technically advanced forces require increasing amounts of complex training to allow the troops to function compentently. And the BSG military environment is clearly no less technical than say, the military of the modern United States.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

See, here's the thing: that sounds like you think the rest of the fleet is just twiddling their thumbs, waiting to be protected all day long. We know that's demonstrably not true. There's food production, goods and services, transport, large volumes of daily maintenance on each ship, infrastructure support, security and dozens of other daily tasks necessary to survival. The military does not and cannot perform those functions, at least not all of them.

One problem the fleet must be facing is economies of scale, or rather the lack of them. If they only had twenty really large similar ships, it wouldn't be a problem. However, they've got dozens of different ships. That requires specialized pilots and maintenance crews...and most of these ships are being used for purposes they never were intended for. Like the prison ship, which was never meant to hold people as long as they have, or a ship like Colonial One, which was meant to dock and be serviced hours after launch. It's been MONTHS. The effort of just keeping the fleet moving is a task unto itself. This is, again, something the military isn't doing, and doesn't have the manpower to do. The infrastucture is handled by the civilian government in what is best described as a herculean (possibly quixotic) effort.

I agree that they'll have to start recruiting heavily soon...but I suspect we'll see them starting to abandon ships eventually.

Well those are the people in the support positions and I agree with the rest pretty much. I'm just wondering how many refugees are there there were not part of the original crew compliments of the various ships? How are they using excess manpower they have? Who is in control of that manpower? Just things I'd like to see addressed in future episodes. In the one show Zarek was serving himself at the bar since he said there was no reason for the person who did that job before to do it anymore since he wasn't getting paid to serve people. Have they said if there are ships with production facilities on them? The really need to make more munitions for one.

 

[WizarDru]

Well those are the people in the support positions and I agree with the rest pretty much. I'm just wondering how many refugees are there there were not part of the original crew compliments of the various ships? How are they using excess manpower they have? Who is in control of that manpower? Just things I'd like to see addressed in future episodes. In the one show Zarek was serving himself at the bar since he said there was no reason for the person who did that job before to do it anymore since he wasn't getting paid to serve people. Have they said if there are ships with production facilities on them? The really need to make more munitions for one.

Spot on. This is something I mentioned to dravot after the last episode: they should be running out of bullets, soon. I also think you're right, there is a lot of manpower wastage going on. How long that continues, I couldn't say. The economics of society right now must be a huge mess. Definitely some stuff I hope we see discussed or confronted soon.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Well, they did pick up some armaments in Season One, but resources will continue to be an issue. On the other hand, I think they've got more storage capacity than they have actual Vipers, so they may be overstocked on ammo now.

 

[wingsandsword]

Well, they did pick up some armaments in Season One, but resources will continue to be an issue. On the other hand, I think they've got more storage capacity than they have actual Vipers, so they may be overstocked on ammo now.

Actually, it was in the mini-series when they visited an arsenal and completely re-armed the Galactica. Since they've been so mindful of resources, like keeping track of how many Vipers they have in the fleet, they'll probably get to deal with that soon enough.

The geek in me loves that the creator is as aware of these things as we are. Episodes like "Water" and "The Hand of God" show that they are making sure to keep account of consumable resources and the issues with this spaceborne exodus. I remember with ST: Voyager they made a point of saying early on that they only had 40 Photon Torpedoes early on and no ability to replenish them, but they shot over 90 of them in the show with never explaining where more came from. *shudder* Fortunately, we've moved on beyond that.

Also, about resources, and even the whole military chain of command issue, something from an upcoming episode will be quite interesting, depending on how it plays out:
[sblock]Later in this season there is going to be a two-parter: Pegasus/Ressurection Ship, which is a re-do of the original series episode "The Living Legend" where they find another Battlestar which survived, the Battlestar Pegasus. In the new BSG, much like the original one, the commander of Galactica and Pegasus will butt heads, but in new BSG, Pegasus is commanded by an Admiral Cain (played by Michelle Forbes, best known as Ensign Ro), who outranks Adama and pulls rank on him and his command. In original BSG, this was a chance for the Galactica to get new equipment and crew, as when the Pegasus was lost at the end of the episode the Galactica took it's fighters who were deployed as well as personell who were onboard at the time. In new BSG, it's a good chance to get a new supply of weapons, vipers, fuel, personell, depending on how Pegasus fares.[/sblock]

 

[ecliptic]

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/ For the podcasts in general

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/111/bsg_ep111_FULL.mp3 For the Colonial Day commentary specifically. The part I quoted is between 3:55 to 5:54 in the file, quite early on as he's introducing the episode.

He specifically talks about the civilian and military authorities as if they were 2 seperate entities. Then he goes on talking about how they value their system of government like we do. You pretty much gave me a bogus link.

Umm, no they don't. The laws that the military operate under, in every government in existence, are derived from the government itself. No government, no military laws. To cite a very concrete example - the UCMJ in the U.S. exists only because Congress established it, and the President endorsed it. Without them, it has no force.

If we lost our government the military would still do their job because of how chain of command is setup.

You mean like, say 13 colonies uniting in one government?

You mean our States were planets? OMG how did I miss that?

Name one. Just one. Once you do that, then you might have an argument. Until then, you are just talking out of your rear end.

You mean because there isn't one now there can't ever be one? That logic seems narrow.

Except they certainly seem to. Note that when Roslin announced her visions to the quorum, they immediately consulted the religious authority on hand for confirmation. No one said "hey, I don't believe this religious mubo-jumbo", they said "does she fit the prophecy". Your argument is pretty weak when compared to the actual actions we have seen taken by people on the show.

You are refering to a few of the qurom. What else would the highly religious do?

Of course, they don't seem to think it is a fallacy. Just because you don't believe them doesn't mean that the Quorum or the populace at large doesn't. Thus far, there is no evidence that the majority won't believe her. No one who doesn't have something to gain from ignoring her has questioned the validity of her visions. In point of fact, the only people who have seriously questioned the validity of her visions have been Adama, Tigh, and Helen. Even Zarek (thus far) seems to be going along with them.

Your kidding right? I read that and the first thing that came to my mind was that you need help. "Just because you don't believe them". ROFL. Dude Battlestar Galactica isn't real, the Quorom isn't real.

The majority? The point of a republic is to give reperesentation to the minority so the majority doesn't mob rule. You are advocating mob rule.

Her vision of the captured cylon dying. Her identification of the new planet they found as Kobol. Her vision of the opera house. Should I continue?

You mean visions that were obviously implanted by cylons?

In which case the military would be abandoning those they swore oaths to protect, as well as abandoning their wives, husbands, children, parents, and siblings. I think you need to rethink Galactica's position before you make yourself look sillier than you already do.

It would be the civilians decision. Military isn't abandoning anyone, they are letting them choose to leave.

It great though that you like to throw personal insults around. I think you need to cool down from this arguement because you are taking this way too seriously.

No, you are not understanding the point. If DC got nuked today, the UCMJ would still be in force, because the last lawful orders given by the civilian government would validate the UCMJ. However, if Congress decided to repeal the UCMJ, they could, and the military would have no choice but to go along with it, so long as it wanted to retain legitimacy. If DC got nuked and a subsequent replacement set of lawfully elected (or chosen) legislators (and executive) were elected, and they revoked the UCMJ, they would be within their legal rights to do so.

If Washington DC got nuked we would be under martial law because the then President would have us under martial law. But that is completely different than Battlestar Galactica's government.

This is why I don't think that anyone would expect life to just keep on going as before. I would think that once the survival of the species is constantly at stake the ideas of individual liberty and the other things we expect today would become quaint relics of a past that the Cylons nuked out of existance, and in some cases a detriment to the chances of keeping the species alive. You can't act like the fleet is just a colony, it's a group of ships that carry the last known humans in existance and is under constant attack from Cylons who seek to finish off thier war of genocide. I don't think you would get a ton of resistance to military rule, people would want security, they would want protection from the constant Cylon menace that wiped out thier planets and way of life.

Bingo.

 

[TanisFrey]

I agree that they'll have to start recruiting heavily soon...but I suspect we'll see them starting to abandon ships eventually.

The OBSG had a requiteing campain going on in the backgroung, as in the eps., The Man with Nine Lives, guest staring Fred Astaire.

As for abandon ships I think that it is far more likely that will keep every ship flying to give breathing space to the civilian poplation. If a ship becomes too damage to repair AND THEY HAVE THE TIME, I think they they would melt down all scrap metal attache sections of hall to other ships, ect.