Battlestar Galactica:Seaon 2 Part3 7.29.05

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ecliptic said:
You mean our States were planets? OMG how did I miss that?
Your system for attempting to support your views completely baffles me. You're claiming that... what, nothing like a dozen independent groups have ever attempted to form a shared government? Seriously, you're not making a point of any kind when you first claim that your view is correct "because," and when people point out logical reasons why it might not be, you respond with meaningless stuff like the above.

Have you ever successfully convinced anyone that you were right about anything?

You mean because there isn't one now there can't ever be one? That logic seems narrow.
Not nearly as narrow as your logic, that the BSG universe has to be different from every human government. Think about what you're saying: you're not defending your point about the military and executive governments, you're saying it's not impossible. So what if it's not impossible. We're talking about humans here. Simple logic -- really super-basic simple logic -- says they're likely to act like humans.

What do you think your above sentence did to support your argument about militaries that aren't under the supervision of the executive branch?

You mean visions that were obviously implanted by cylons?
Wherefrom this "obvious?" How is it so obvious?

It would be the civilians decision. Military isn't abandoning anyone, they are letting them choose to leave.
Are you familiar with the concept of responsibility?

It great though that you like to throw personal insults around. I think you need to cool down from this arguement because you are taking this way too seriously.
I suggest you re-read your own material, Mr. Pot.

If Washington DC got nuked we would be under martial law because the then President would have us under martial law.
BZZZZZT. Incorrect. I recommend a basic course in government.
 

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Fast Learner said:
Your system for attempting to support your views completely baffles me. You're claiming that... what, nothing like a dozen independent groups have ever attempted to form a shared government? Seriously, you're not making a point of any kind when you first claim that your view is correct "because," and when people point out logical reasons why it might not be, you respond with meaningless stuff like the above.

The point is that Battlestar Galactica isn't real and there is nothing such as a situation that it can be compared to. But you over zealous people seem to want it to somehow be real.

Fast Learner said:
Not nearly as narrow as your logic, that the BSG universe has to be different from every human government. Think about what you're saying: you're not defending your point about the military and executive governments, you're saying it's not impossible. So what if it's not impossible. We're talking about humans here. Simple logic -- really super-basic simple logic -- says they're likely to act like humans.

What do you think your above sentence did to support your argument about militaries that aren't under the supervision of the executive branch?

The government is setup like the writers set it up. It is obvious by the workings in the TV shows and the writers comments that the military and civilian branches of government are seperate.

So logic says it is what it is and no amount of you arguing otherwise is going to change that.

Fast Learner said:
Wherefrom this "obvious?" How is it so obvious?

You mean besides the fact that one of her first hallucinations is about a cyclon? Every one of her hallucinations have put them in direct fire of the cylons in someway. Where a military operation would have completely failed because of the President's inept decision yet plan B only succeeded because the cylons permitted it.

No religious text of any kind can be taken straight and literally. How else do cylons know how to interpret anything? They have the mind of a machine, they see stuff in binary and they output stuff in binary. Straight forward interpretations is the only way they see stuff. Plus on a story arch, it is building up for something and the logic says that whatever it is, it isn't on the obvious because the show has done nothing but be subtle. Why would things change now?


Fast Learner said:
Are you familiar with the concept of responsibility?

It would be the responsibility of parents to listen to the military to keep their children safe.
It would be the responsibility of the civilian government to listen to the military to keep their people safe.

It is Roslins repsponsibility to answer for her treasonous acts.

Fast Learner said:
I suggest you re-read your own material, Mr. Pot.

I am sure you want to quote me, go ahead. Unless you think my criticism of a fictional character is somehow a 'personal insult'?

Fast Learner said:
BZZZZZT. Incorrect. I recommend a basic course in government.

You mean the basic course of government that teaches that the President of the United States can put this country under martial law if such a thing happens?
 

ecliptic said:
You mean besides the fact that one of her first hallucinations is about a cyclon? Every one of her hallucinations have put them in direct fire of the cylons in someway. Where a military operation would have completely failed because of the President's inept decision yet plan B only succeeded because the cylons permitted it.

No religious text of any kind can be taken straight and literally. How else do cylons know how to interpret anything? They have the mind of a machine, they see stuff in binary and they output stuff in binary. Straight forward interpretations is the only way they see stuff. Plus on a story arch, it is building up for something and the logic says that whatever it is, it isn't on the obvious because the show has done nothing but be subtle. Why would things change now?
Binary in and binary out? I think the Sharon model cylon (and to a lesser extent, Six) proves that they are much more advanced than this. Emotion defys logic and clearly the cylons models can become attached emotionally. And we can talk about programming if we like (to prove they are machines incapable of escaping programming) but don't forget that humans can be programmed, too.

Point being - They have become more advanced that humans are and have a plan for us. I'm pretty sure they could have destroyed humanity if they really wanted to. They've already done everything else they wanted to.
 

ecliptic said:
The point is that Battlestar Galactica isn't real and there is nothing such as a situation that it can be compared to. But you over zealous people seem to want it to somehow be real.
Dude, just about anything in fiction has some kind of basis in history. You are saying that what is happening in the show has and never will happen on Earth and that may be true if you hold every detail up and reject anything that comes close.

The truth is that while humanity is at stake that doesn't disqualify it from historical comparison. Any culture that has faced extinction would have seen things the same way - the end of Them.
 

ecliptic said:
It would be the responsibility of parents to listen to the military to keep their children safe.
It would be the responsibility of the civilian government to listen to the military to keep their people safe.
Weird how you skipped the responsibility of the military. What do you think their responsibility is?

I am sure you want to quote me, go ahead. Unless you think my criticism of a fictional character is somehow a 'personal insult'?
Sure, there are plenty of examples. Here's one: "ROFL. Dude Battlestar Galactica isn't real, the Quorom isn't real."

You mean the basic course of government that teaches that the President of the United States can put this country under martial law if such a thing happens?
Hmm. Examine that statement, and then examine the statement I responded to. See if you can spot the discrepancy.

I see no point in responding to any of the other stuff you wrote, since it's just repeating what you already wrote, stuff that doesn't seem to address the issues being discussed, at least not that I can see, leaving us just responding to each other in circles.
 
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ecliptic, I did not give you a "bogus link". The official commentary said exactly what I quoted. The creator of the show outright said that one of the basic concepts for the show was that unchecked military rule is a bad thing, that the Colonials prize civil rights and liberties even in the face of crisis and war just as much as our culture does, their government in many ways is strongly modelled on ours, and that there is a legitimate civilian government which is what the people listen to and acknowledge, although there is politicking and arguing between the military and that civilian power structure. The actual cultural and legal framework, as well as the creator's intents are crystal clear, he even establishes it early on in the series well before the episode in question.

Also, if you think that the nuclear destruction of Washington DC would lead to nationwide martial law possibly with some General running things, you really don't know much about civics, American history, or the Constitution.

ecliptic said:
You mean the basic course of government that teaches that the President of the United States can put this country under martial law if such a thing happens?
American law and precedent is very clear that the President cannot legally do that if such a cataclysm happens.

When Washington DC was burned to the ground during the War of 1812, with hostile troops marching on the city and martial law was not declared. The only time during that war where Martial Law was declared was in the City of New Orleans, to a 4 mile radius from the city limits, as it was a central base of American forces during the war. Major General Andrew Jackson was actually fined $1000 (a considerable sum at the time) by a Federal judge outside the area of Martial Law for refusing to turn over a military prisoner to a civilian court. Gen. Jackson ordered the Judge arrested for interfering with the war effort, which the military arrested the judge. After a political struggle that is a major historic parallel to the BSG situation, Gen. Jackson relented, begrudgingly acknowledged the supremacy of civilian law, paid the fine, and released the Judge and handed the prisoner over.

When Lincoln declared nationwide Martial Law during the Civil War, it was ruled by the courts to be unconstitutional, and that precedent has stood to this day. The relevant Supreme Court precedent is Ex Parte Milligan (1866) http://www.law.uchicago.edu/tribunals/milligan.html, which ruled that while the Congress can suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus in the event of invasion or insurrection, but only in the area where the actual invasion or insurrection is occuring, not nationwide, and not while there are still functioning civilian courts. United States precedent and law states that martial law can only be forcibly imposed in situations where the civilian government is completely unable to function, not where the military would rather function unimpeded by civilian authority. The martial law throughout Hawaii in WWII was also overturned by the Supreme Court, with related convictions overturned, on the same grounds.

What could be described by some as martial law was declared locally several times in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to deal with labor disputes, as the Posse Comitatus Act (http://www.northcom.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.factsheets&factsheet=5) was invoked to allow the military to act as law enforcement to break the strike, but only under orders from the civilian government and to bring them to civilian courts for trial. In American legal tradition "Martial Law" as generally legally implemented refers to using the military to act as law enforcement for the civilian authority in time of emergency, not letting the military run govern without civilian oversight.

A nuclear strike against Washington DC also wouldn't destroy entire civilian government. We have what are called Continuity of Operations Plans, where we are always prepared for such an event, and have been since the dawn of the Cold War. Under no circumstance is everybody in the line to the Presidency ever in one place, and there are very long and very elaborate plans to ensure that a legally valid Federal government remains intact. Frankly, if as little as one state Lieutenant Governor somewhere in the country survives a disaster, he can ascend to become Governor, who can appoint two interim Senators, who can choose one of them as a President Pro Tempore of the Senate, who is then immediately sworn in as President, and another Senator is appointed to fill that gap, and then the new President can appoint a new Cabinet and Supreme Court that are confirmed by the new Senate, and there is an interim government legally reestablished until new elections can be convened at the end of the current term of office. Under no circumstance is the idea of some General or Admiral just assuming power ever part of this plan.
 

A very interesting primer in aspects of civil government.

However, unless certain people remember to keep their cool we may have to close this thread as it has been steering pretty closely to the twin shoals of inflammatory name-calling and politics.

I don't want to do that, and you don't want that to happen, so lets all play nice, OK?

Thanks,
 

To echo what PS said....

Man, through all this bantering back and forth I'm glad I learned something that I didn't know before. That was pretty cool, wings. Many thanks. :)
 


wind ... I remember with ST: Voyager they made a point of saying early on that they only had 40 Photon Torpedoes early on and no ability to replenish them, but they shot over 90 of them in the show with never explaining where more came from. *shudder* Fortunately, we've moved on beyond that...
Ok I thought I killed my inner trekie geek. But one show did mention them somehow being able to build more torps but it was throw off scene.
 

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